Finally put up a fee(s) sign

[magic]

Here is what I came up with, and borrowing a line from another post.

Did I leave anything out or go too far?

Feel free to print and use it yourself.(fits on an 8 X 10 sheet of paper.
- --- - -
Your name here

Prices for CNC work are:
The first 10 minutes are no charge. This time is used to determine if our machines can make the project
and to give an estimate of the time involved to make the project. Samples and prototypes are not free.
Time spent at customers request for 'trying' out different color schemes, fonts, panel shapes, sizes,
how things fit & all other ideas and/or concepts are a billable part of design and machine time.
Design time $50 per hour
Machine time $85 per hour
Prices prequoted are considered estimates unless the contract specifically states an exact price.
Verbal estimates of time or material cost do not constitute an agreement.

Design time includes:
•File conversion and placement (DFX, EPS, STL etc.)
•Creating an art file from a photo, drawing or by freehand, including but not limited to using multiple
computers and/or multiple computer programs.
•Changes to the project, including changing sizes, nesting or anything not prescribed by us.
•Artistic projects that require computerized sculpting or manipulating of parts.
•Making photo-realistic simulations of the project and transmitting or forwarding them to the customer.
•Feasibility assessments of the project which may include research and/or using various computer
programs to check sizes so as to avoid misfits. Feasibility studies may also include consulting other
professionals for their opinions. Feasibility studies may also include sourcing of various materials.
We take no responsibility for parts cut to the customers specifications If the customer does not want an
overview or feasibility study to determine suitability, construction technique or tolerances (fit).

Machine time includes:
•Buying materials.
•Transporting materials (if not delivered by a wholesaler).
•Loading and unloading materials on the machine.
•Positioning of materials.
•Replacing cutting bits or drill bits and adjusting them to cut at the proper depth.
•Testing a cutting bit on customer-supplied material for suitability.
•Cutting the material(s).

Time and expense for broken bits and/or recutting parts, where we error, will be absorbedby us. Time and expenses that occur because we made incorrect changes in the design will
be absorbed by us.

Due to the unforeseen nature of machining and manufacturing the actual time it takes to complete a
project may vary significantly from the estimate given. All times are therefore estimates.

[john_l]

Looks real good. But, personally, I'd just leave this out... "Time and expense for broken bits and/or recutting parts, where we error, will be absorbedby us. Time and expenses that occur because we made incorrect changes in the design will be absorbed by us.
Due to the unforeseen nature of machining and manufacturing the actual time it takes to complete a project may vary significantly from the estimate given"

I would also include this legend in your written work contract and also speak to a local attorney regarding establishing a legal work contract to use. With the emphasis on keeping YOU out of a sticky spot.

Our out of pocket expense for attorney review of our contracts were around $1600 for each state where they are proposed to be used. We also have them re-reviewed every few years for a little less cost.

Depending on what all you do... you might expect a cheaper cost. Ours is kind of involved... we do site work, permit work, delivery, installations, and a bunch of stuff besides CNC shop work. This might be the best investment you could ever make though.

[joe]

I'd be sure to include something about the alignment of the stars.

[gc3]

Forget everything except the last paragraph.Why not simply state it as " time and material plus 15%"

Keep the "KISS" method in mind...

...atta boy Joe...





Gene Crain
www.plantasymaderas.com (http://www.plantasymaderas.com)

[magic]

Joe

How would I phrase the paragraph about the alignment of the stars? Should that involve a telescope?

[coach]

Not a good time in the economy to be pushy.
I like the idea of a sign for pricing and will steal some of your items.
Don't want to overwhelm customers.
I think a separate printed version for different applications may be beter suited.

[gc3]

Maybe consult the Aztec calendar for the star alignments...

Another thought, start out you pricing schedule with the term "If you have to ask how much you probally cannot afford to pay for it" that should eliminate a lot of bargain shoppers.



Gene Crain
www.plantasymaderas.com (http://www.plantasymaderas.com)

[magic]

I used to be an easy going guy

I would make the box, do the cut or whatever but so many people have taken advantage of me that - possibly - the pendulum has swung the other way.

Perhaps I'll make a simple sign, with just the prices - then have this one ready if the customer has questions.
- - - -

Before this I didn't have anything. They would bring me something to cut and i'd quote em a price.... then the changes started... for free.

It's always the same 16 real small changes that add up to an hour and a half while they stand there and supervise.

[joe]

Magic,

I'm on the other side of this discussion.

I should be careful with any suggestions since my clients may be different than yours.

The major question a new customer has when entering my shop is how much is this going to cost. I know because that's what I'm thinking when ordering from a new supplier.

They are us.

I don't give then a chance to ask. Up front, after the introduction, I often say, "Lets see how I can help you and what it's going to cost."
This will often dis-arming the client. I guarantee it will grease the skids.

Another winning offer I often use is, "I don't know, right now, what this is going to cost, but if we work together I think we can get it in your budget. What your conveying is the willingness to work with them and be their friend.

During a downturn economy is no time to throw up red tags and rules. Friends like to do business with friends. I absolutely love my clients. They often excuse my screw-ups, and I make exceptions for theirs.

All of the fore mentioned doesn't mean I don't have requirement. But "A little sugar makes the medicine go down."

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

PS: Don't swim with sharks. You'll get bit. Let potential customers who want to use you get away.

[magic]

quote
Another winning offer I often use is, "I don't know, right now, what this is going to cost, but if we work together I think we can get it in your budget.

That, sir... is golden.... You are in the drivers seat by informing them that there are different options & get their budget... If they don't like what you propose (or want to make changes) you then refer to your opening statement again and remind them that depending on their budget, you have different options.

It's a perfect circle of logic. From now on, you're new title is SB Zen Master

[curtiss]

Seems I saw a sign in an auto shop once that said...

Shop rate: $70 an hour

If you watch: $90 an hour

If you help: $120 an hour

[john_l]

I suppose this is a "to each his own" sort of thing. It's very different from company to company.

Magic, I know that I absolutely hate going to buy a new car. I just dread it and I know many others that feel the same. I used to pickup a new car every couple years. Nowadays, I really drag it out. After all these years, new car dealers have pretty much aligned themselves to the point where the industry standard is to take this approach and just milk what you can out of the customer's "available budget".

As a customer, and if I have a choice, I will always, always run fast from any conversation that begins with "so, what were you planning on spending?". Honestly, I don't have time for such games. It's a big world, more choices available than ever before, and there are usually others that will transact without such games.

Sometimes you have to, but I always feel that, in dealing with a vendor that transacts this way I have left some savings on the table.

I really like your approach. You tell me how much you charge as quickly as possible. In your example, if the customer reads on through.. you have even told them the why or how it will add up. No need to "snare" me as a customer.

My advice may not apply to your situation. We have a minimum size job we will take at my shop. I don't do very small jobs for others. Everything starts with a contract that spells out the cost and our obligations.

[dlcw]

Joe,

When you approach a prospective customer with your work together approach, how do you account for the time that you are working with them to fit it within their budget? I've had customers that want to spend hours negotiating features and functions. This time adds up rapidly. I know it's the cost of doing sales, but at what point do you simply say - I must apologize, but it looks like we won't be able to fit your wants and desires into your available budget.

This has always been a difficult waypoint, along the sales path, for me to figure out. I guess maybe a way to approach it is to indicate that the first hour is free, after that you'd have to start charging for the time. Anybody know the magic formula for this situation? Yes, I want to be friends with my customers, but I'm still trying - desperately - to run a profitable business.

Just some thoughts.

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[myxpykalix]

It's the dilema of doing "free estimates". You have to spend time selling the job to the customer which is your time.
Then once you have landed the job knowing when to start the time clock.
I think the problem is knowing when you have sold the job and are now working/negotiating design characteristics of the project.

Rather then having a long list of what constitutes work and what is selling and having to go over everything with your customer which sets up the customer to want to watch the clock or be defensive I would just add a few hours to the estimated job time and quote it like that.

I never like to pay anyone by the hour because the natural instinct is to sloooow down.

[magic]

I dunno... I run around here like a chicken with my head cut off. (just so i can take a break and log on)

[ghostcreek]

I feel part of my cost of doing business is sales/marketing, which can range from free estimates to trips to the job site and establishing a relationship. I treat all clients like I wish to be treated. The "tricky" clients are treated like all the others, I will never lower myself to acting difficult like some clients. I find it hard to have a concrete pricing "list", every job is as different as my Clients. There are standard rates, which are applied to the job (Design, Machining, Finishing, Installation). But I have found most clients could care less about what makes up my pricing, as long as they see the value and service for the project. My clients and I are a team, working togeather. Just my 3 cents....

[magic]

So how do you handle a customer who gives you the job THEN starts to make time consuming changes.

For example: They want a headboard . They show you a picture of the one they want,out of walnut and after you start designing (and quoted them a price) they bring you a sample of burled walnut and ask you to match it.... taking possibly 4 hours at the distributer trying to match the wood.

[joe]

Thanks Majic for your nice complements.

There's no easy, pat answer on this topic. Each will have to find their best customer techniques.

It's easy, for me, to adjuct quoted prices. A nice reminder to the customer, "In order to keep our prices in check, revisions will incuur a little more money." They usually agree and are willing to pay.

Once the client undersands their changes cost more, they back off and let the process continue. However there times it's necessary.

I don't think it's possible to survice in this market by operating on the margin. The profit must be considerable in order to cover all the fore metioned steps. For that reason I've found a square foot price doesn't work very often but it's a good reference point.

A bang good job will be remembered and over a short period time the price will be insignificant

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[cartar]

I am a CPA with experience in the private sector. I enjoyed reading this thread and all the points made, even those in jest, are important. There is no way way to right a contract that covers all situations. So I Magic's list posted on the wall. I would also leave out the last couple of lines. As a consumer, I do want an estimate or range of a project.

Initially I would take a couple of your completed project and explain the standard and the extras so they get a ballpark idea. I would then say we need to carefully define the project and then give them an estimate while firmly telling them that changes cost money. In defining the project I would point out where for a few dollars more you could have this change made or by dropping this point you can save money and tell them why. Good luck.