Upgrading a PRT Alpha

[ron_moorehead]

I have a 48 by 96 PRT Alpha that’s about 1.5 years old with 1:1 stepper motors and a PC router. I went to the jamboree in California and had a great time and saw the new PRSAlpha very nice machine. My question, I have a little extra money and would like to upgrade my machine. I understand they have an upgrade to the newer 7.2:1 geared stepper motors for the older Alpha’s, but I would also like to upgrade to a HSD spindle. I have money to do one now, but not both. Any recommendations, I am ok with the cut I get now, but I do have some chatter marks in the plastic I cut. Thanks.

[Brady Watson]

Ron,
To upgrade the X&Y motors to 7.2:1 PRS-spec is only $750. I would jump on that deal quick. You probably heard the '$3995' number, which is really a hardened rail & PRS-style gantry option with NO motors. If you can, try to squeeze in both the $750 upgrade and the spindle in one shot. It will be like a whole new tool. Don't quote me on exact prices...call ShopBot directly to be sure.

-B

[ron_moorehead]

Brady,

Thanks for the information. I have the cash for a new spindle, may have to break out the plastic and go for both.

[knight_toolworks]

if I remember right you have to send the control box back to shopbot if you want to change it over to a spindle. that would be a real hassle.

[Brady Watson]

You do not have to send the control box back to SB unless for safety/OSHA reasons you need the spindle to turn off when the e-stop is hit. Personally, I hate that function and rather be in full control of the spindle's on/off functions.

-B

[hespj]

No I didn't send my control box back (I'm in the UK).

What benefits might I see with the $750 upgrade?

John

[ron_moorehead]

I went ahead and ordered the new spindle and stepper motors today, said they would shipped in about two weeks. Should be here when I get back from two weeks in Hawaii.

[richards]

Ron, it's a good thing that your question wasn't, "Should I upgrade my Alpha or go to Hawaii for two weeks?"

[jhicks]

Brady, am i reading this correctly? Upgrade PRT to new motors for $750.00. Thats 3 motors that are plug and play on PRT. I'll check the site more but assume these are reduction kits on motors.
Not sure how I missed this upgrade but am checking into 3rd party units so want to make sure i have all the facts.
Thanks

[jhicks]

Never mind Brady, I re-read and see its ALPHA PRT

[Brady Watson]

Didn't get your coffee yet, did ya?


-B

[jhicks]

Guess one isn't enough so back to for a refill.

[hespj]

"What benefits might I see with the $750 upgrade?"

Anybody?

[ed_lang]

John,
On my PRTAlpha96 I saw cut quality to from good to smooth and perfect. I have tried to get some pictures of my cuts but my pictures so far just don't show the detail I want to show.

For me, it was the difference between tearing paper and cutting it.

[brian_h]

Anyone else? I've been thinking about this, but of course the money is a factor. As I've said before, cut quality is much more important than speed to me. Thanks, Ed. You've definately got me thinking. I just have to decide priorities. I need a jointer too, so I'm trying to decide what is more important.

[harryball]

I am going to upgrade mine. I called and setup the order... I have about $400 left to earn/budget/save so I can pay and they ship. From everthing I heard from Ed and others I was seriously considering but after a short discussion about with with Brady it was time to commit.

Robert

[Brady Watson]

This was done on a PRTAlpha with PRS 7.2:1 motors: http://www.bradywatson.com/Aluminum.htm If you can get this 'chatter-free' in AL, imagine how your wood parts will look.


-B

[ed_lang]

Brady,

Thanks for pointing to a picture of a good example. I have been trying to get a super close picture of some baltic birch I am cutting and a photographer I am not.

I will not worry about how to sand the edges of parts now. I'll ship them right off of the machine. That will give me time to work on my photography skills, or lack of them!

[hespj]

Thanks Ed & Brady, this is what I wanted to hear. I'll contact SB tomorrow.

John

[paul_z]

I was going to order the upgrade with a spare driver for both the new and old (Z) motors; however, Frank (Shopbot) informed me that they sell the new motor and drivers only as pairs.

I asked him if a driver were to fail, would I have to buy the motor as well. His reply was “As it stands now, that is the case.” He also said "This is only the case with alphas."

Just a heads up for those who have purchased the upgrade and those who are thinking about it.

I’m going to have to rethink this…

Paul Z

[kenz]

Is there any drawbacks to the geared motors? For example, does the gearing reduce the top speed. I ask because I cut a lot of foam and like to run it as fast as I can.

[Brady Watson]

Paul,
The Alpha drivers are practically bullet-proof. I wouldn't worry about durability and I have never heard of one having a catastrophic failure. They are very well protected and have safe-guards built into them.

Ken,
You will be able to cut with full force up to 12 IPS. You should limit your jog speed to 20 IPS since the gearboxes aren't rated for speeds over this. However, the tool will still jog 30 IPS, if you have the communication speed. (Who jogs @ 30?!) While we're on the subject of comm speed, you'll want to be sure to run the communication test application in the SB3 folder. If you find that your efficiency rating is less than 75%, you might want to get a USB v2.0 hub. It HAS to say it is 2.0 USB. Then, plug it in, plug the SB USB to Serial converter into it & goto the control panel/device manager and look for the Ports section. Under it you should see one of the ports designated as 'enhanced'. Make sure the 'ATEN serial bridge' is sitting under this connection & note the COM port it lists. Then connect your SB with this COM port on startup.

My COM speed was about 73% before putting in a 2.0 USB hub that I got from RadioShack. After hanging the SB off of the enhanced port, my efficiency went way up to about 88%. There are 2 factors at work here: 1) Communication speed and 2) Communication bandwidth. The COM speed went up allowing my tool to communicate faster & by using the enhanced port, my bandwidth went up allowing more information to be sent to the ShopBot at that increased speed. Think of it as going from a garden hose to a fire hose. It made a big difference for me with the 7.2:1 motors running over 8IPS.

So...in a nutshell, yes - you will be able to cut foam at full speed.


-B

[kenz]

Thanks Brady, excellent info.

[jsfrost]

I have ordered the motor and spindle upgrade, and have been discussing the control box changes with SB. I gather from this thread, that the spindle will run with E Stop not shutting off the spindle if I leave the control box as is. Will the spindle still start and stop when run from a file that presently controls a router with SO commands?

Note: the price Brady quotes is correct with return of the old motors, but there is a $750 deposit until SB gets the motors back.

[Brady Watson]

Jim,
If your VFD is currently wired up to the DCM & FWD terminals on the control board and your spindle is electrically wired to the contactors in the box, then yes, it will turn on & off with Output 1 and do a full stop via the E-stop. I believe that if only the DCM & FWD terminals are hooked up that the E-stop function will not stop the spindle, but your spindle will respond to SO commands. You'll want to check it out on your end to be sure when you get things set up.

-B

[paul_z]

Brady,

What are your thoughts on replacing X,X,Y,Z and buying a spare?

Paul Z

[Brady Watson]

I have 7.2s on X,X,Y,Z. I have a spare 1:1 for a 2nd Z that I haven't implemented yet. If you really need a 2nd Z, then get it. If not, then save the cash. Like I said, these drivers & motors are really stout. They make Geckos look like toys...and I have nothing against Gecko since I have about 12 of them in operation at the moment.

-B

[paul_z]

Brady,

I'm convinced. I've asked for a quote for replacing 4 plus a "spare". I have plans for the "spare".

Paul Z

[brian_h]

Yea, I'm probably in too, sans the spare.

[lto]

The motor upgrade must have become very popular, The 2 week expected ship time is already exceeded, I as told today it will go 6 weeks til we get ours.

[hespj]

I ordered the upgrade. Now I'm wondering if I'll send the old motors back - I guess I don't have too. Shipping from SB to here is over $300, it might cost that to send them back, making it a $450 refund (to me). Can't help thinking their worth more than that.........much more.

I wonder if anybody has any idea about what would be needed to make another machine based around these old motors.

John

(Please excuse me if I've misread the situation and the motors must be returned.)

[Brady Watson]

John,
I think that's considered 'double dipping' and it's pretty much manditory that you ship the motors back. As I've explained earlier, this upgrade with 3 motors and drivers is less than HALF the cost of ONE motor and driver set. You will need to send back BOTH the motors AND the drivers in the control box, and replace them with the units that ShopBot sends you. Even if shipping costs some dough...the performance and quality that you will now experience will quickly overshadow that cost. Trust me


-B

[ron_moorehead]

My spindle and stepper motors are due to ship the first week of August. When I ordered them they told me they would ship in two weeks. Just talked with Shopbot and they said they treat the stepper motors up grade the same as ordering a new Shotbot and put in the que. As far as shipping the old stepper motors back I got the feeling that it was up to me if I shipped them back or not, if I did I got the $750.00 refunded back to me, if I did not shipped them back I did not get any money back no big deal. Brady is right about the cost for a single motor this is a great deal even with out sending the old ones back. My question is what are they doing with the old stepper motors we send back?

[Brady Watson]

FYI I contacted ShopBot to get the latest & greatest info on this upgrade. Here's what I was told:

"We now charge $1,500 for the 7.2 upgrade and when we receive the old motors back we refund the customer $750. We no longer charge just the $750 and depend on getting the motors back."

Hope that clears things up a bit...ALWAYS contact SB directly to get the latest and greatest info regarding upgrades and prices.

-B

[harryball]

I can certainly see the logic in that.

[fleinbach]

I paid my $1,500.00 on June 26th and forgot to ask them when they would come but sorta got the impression it would only be a couple of weeks. Well I suppose they will come eventualy but I'm in no hurry.

[hespj]

Thanks Brady, I'm still not clear on this*. I'll email and ask as you suggest, but maybe there's not much point in keeping them anyway**. If I didn't already have a second Z and an indexer I would be very tempted, but not if it were dishonest.

John

*I did contact SB and order the upgrade. With the quote they said "The final cost is $750, but only if you send your old motors back to us." I think the "IF" makes it clear that the motors don't have to be returned.

I find the answer you got from SB ambiguous - "We no longer charge just the $750 and depend on getting the motors back."

Does that mean they no longer charge just $750, AND no longer depend on getting the motors back.

Or does it mean they no longer charge just $750 and they DO depend on getting the motors back.

I can read it either way.


** I was wondering if electronic parts, SB or otherwise, were available to put together another (perhaps simpler if need be) machine. I already made the table for this machine, Brady and others have made carraiges - the metalwork doesn't scare me. I guess I could find out by hunting around on the www, but I certainly won't do this if it's dishonest or against the spirit of the upgrade. I'm sure none of us would want to pull a fast one on ShopBot.

[hespj]

ShopBot say keep the motors if I like (with no refund of course).

Anybody got any ideas on what to do with them......

John

[bleeth]

Offer them up for sale on the Mechmate forum and on cnc zone

[hespj]

Thanks Dave, I might find some useful project to use them on these sites.

John

[richards]

John,
The Oriental Motor Alpha stepper motors can be used just like any other stepper motor while requiring only AC power connections to the stepper drivers and a step and direction signal from the controller. They are a lot easier to use in a 'new' machine because you won't have to buy/build a power supply.

If bought directly from Oriental Motors, the AS911 motor w/driver costs about $1,100 each! So, if you have an application for them, getting four motors for the trade-in difference of $750 is a great bargain.

[jeffreymcgrew]

Hey, this is probably a stupid question, but how can you tell which motor you've got? What's the number on the 7.2's? Our PRT is about 1.5 years old, and this does sound like a deal, but I want to double-check which motors we've got first.

[Brady Watson]

Those are definately 1:1 drive motors on the Ebay machine. 1G PRT. I bought one just like this about 6 months ago to flip & wound up replacing the motors with some 3.6:1 that I had sitting on the shelf. The 1:1s are horrible & require a 18T pinion to get even a remote amount of resolution out of them. Most PRTs came with 3.6:1 motors, and the easiest way to tell is to look at the label and see if it says 0.5°/step on them. The 7.2:1 motors say 0.25°/step on them...not all do, but the ones that don't have an Oriental part number on them that you can look up. Most have an OEM number on them that cannot be referenced from Oriental's site.

Jeff - Your motors are most likely 3.6:1 ratio since you bought it in the past 2 years.

-B

[hespj]

Thanks Mike. I'll scour Gerald's site and see how I like the idea of doing a project.

John

[fleinbach]

Well I recieved my 7.2 upgrade motors yesterday and thought I'd install them today but when I opened the box I found they have sent the complete motor with cable to go all the way back to the control box. I'm not sure why they needed to send the additional cable since all motors have a short cable with a plug heatshrinked around it. Installing the motors and controler cards would be very easy but rerunning the entire cable would be a real pain. Does anyone know if there is any reason why I can't just cut off the heat shrink and plug the motors in without rerunning the cables?



I sent an email to Shopbot but since it's the weekend I'm not sure if or when I will get an answer.

[fleinbach]

Well I recieved my answer from Shopbot already so I will begin.

They said:

"As far as I know the cables are interchangeable, but the 7.2's were tested before they left. If you decide to cut the heat shrink make sure the connections are not damaged."

[paul_z]

Frank,

Thanks for the posts. I should be getting my 7.2s in a week or two and it's good to know about the cable issue.

Paul Z

[fleinbach]

I just finished my install of the 7.2 motor upgrade and it was relatively easy. I only wish I had looked closer in the boxes. That would have saved me a trip to Radio Shack for heat sink compound. I started at 11:00 Am and finished at 1:20 PM and that included the trip to Radio Shack which took 30 minutes. So it appears it took 1 hour and 50 minutes total time from start to up and running. That included unpacking and repacking the old motors for shipment back to Shopbot for my refund.

At this point I have run them just to make sure they are working and they work just fine.

The install was very easy with only one glitch. The 3 allen wrenches fit to loosely and when applying pressure they spun out. Luckily I had one that fit tighter. I had no problem tightening them after that. I was surprised at the position the gears had to be on the shaft. On the old motors the gear was flush with the shaft but on the new ones the gear sits 1/2 inch off the end of the shaft to mate with the rack gear.

As I questioned earlier I chose to cut off the heat shrink to keep from rerunning the motor cables. Now I am looking forward to see what improvement it will make.

I do have one question, I believe Brady wrote somewhere you need to make some changes in the software setting for the 7.2's. Am I correct Brady? If so can you tell me what they are.

[Brady Watson]

Frank,
Just setup your machine for a PRSAlpha (changing the config via UR) then change your Z axis unit value and multiplier value on same fill-in sheet back to 1:1 Alpha settings. Other than this, you should be good to go. You will want to monkey with ramp settings (VR) a bit and tune for the type of work that you do.

-B

[fleinbach]

Ok, I seem to have some issues. I went into utilities and reset as a PRSalpha 144. Now my prox swithches are acting weird. The one on the X axis stops the tool but does not light up anymore. The one on the Y lights but don't stop the travel.

Any ideas while I check farther?

Edit:

I put things back to Prtalpha and in that mode the Y prox works the same as it should but the X prox still stops the travel but won't light up.

Runnig X,Y zero routine when in Prtalpha mode starts ok but after hitting prox switch it tries to move away but errors and needs to be reset.

Running X,Y zero routine when in prsalpha mode I get an error befor any movement that the tool is already on the prox switch.

None of this seems to make any sense since one prox works differant then the other and neither one was touched during the change.

[fleinbach]

Ok, I figured out the problem. The gear on the new motor is larger then the old one. The reason the prox switch was not lighting but the machine was stoping is because it was hitting my stop block. It works fine now in Prtalpha mode now I will check PrsAlpa again.

[Ryan Patterson]

Frank,
IF you are choosing a new settings file you will still need to select one for a PRT Alpha. The only changes you will need to make will be the unit values. The prox switches on a PRS are normally closed. Prt prox switches are normally open. Although you are using the same motors as on the new PRS you still have a PRT Alpha.

[fleinbach]

Ryan,

Everything seems to work fine in Prtalpha mode. I can do the X,Y Zero routine as before. What unit values do I need to set?

[Brady Watson]

X&Y 2482.8171 with 5X multiplier on each @ bottom
Z 1273.2395 with 4X multiplier on Z.

-B

[fleinbach]

Much better when you get the right settings. thanks Brady, Ryan

I knew something was real wrong when I moved accross the Y axis and got 96 inches of travel. Maybe tommorow I 'll try some cutting.

[blaz_in_az]

Frank,
I also made an unecessary trip to radio shack for heat sink transfer paste and when repacking boxes to ship back I found the stuff in a box. ShopBot should send a packing list with each shipment so you can do a proper job of receiving.

There should be instructions, and they should include the fact the gear change requires stop block relocation and include the exact settings needed in the software to take care of the upgrade. I am always pleased with support, but this ommission is basic business, and I don't understand why they do it this way.

I spent a couple more hours than I should have. However, the end result in performance was worth it.

Tim

[fleinbach]

Tim,

You are right a simple one page instruction sheet would have made this upgrade just that much easier then it was. I knew the unit values needed to be changed from past reading but had no idea to what. I also should have known better about the stop blocks since while I was installing the new larger gears I had thought to myself I will need to reposition them. But once I got everything hooked up and running I forgot about moving them until I tried to re Zero. Also I'm sure there are some people out there who are very mechanically inclined but have little to know experience with electronics and could easily not realize they need heat sink compound. They would be scratching their head wondering what went wrong when the controllers start overheating.

I wrote a set of instructions and started a new topic for them here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=7&post=55117#POST55117)


Step 1. Inventory parts:

a. Instructions
b. 3 new controller cards.
c. 3 new ribbon cables controller card to mother board.
d. Heat sink compound.
e. 3 new 7.2 motors with cables, spring and turnbuckle.


Installation:

Motors are marked both on the cable and the motor bracket as to their location. The bracket has colored dots to describe their type. There are 2 X motors marked with either one or two red dots. The old motors are marked also so just match them up. The Y motor is marked with one blue dot.

Step 1. In the control box locate and catalog the wire layout to the X1,X2 and Y controller card. You can make a drawing or take a photo whichever you prefer.

Step 2. Remove old motor and replace with new one. You then have a choice. The first choice is to entirely rerun the new cable or if you don't want to spend all the time untying and retying you can carefully cut the heat shrink located about 10 inches from the motor and plug in the new motor without rerunning the cable.

Step 3. If you chose not to plug into the old cable you will need to rerun the new cable. If you used the old cable omit this step.

Step 4. Swap out old controller cards. All three cards are the same so you don't need to match them to the motors. You will need a 9/16 socket with extension and a screwdriver.
a. Remove wires and ribbon cables from controller cards. Note which ribbon cable goes to where on main board. It is impossible to see where ribbon cables are plugged into main board before removing controller cards since they are directly under them.

b. Remove cards. The far right board bottom 9/16 nut is not reachable until removing the card to the right. It is blocked by another card plugged into the main controller board.

c. Clean old dried heat sink compound from controller case. Acetone works well for this.

d. Before installing controller cards be sure to plug in new ribbon cables to main board marking which one goes to which controller card.

e. Apply heat sink compound to new controller card. Apply a thin coat covering the entire surface area that contacts the controller case.

f. Install controller cards and reconnect all wires and cables.

Step 5. Relocate stop blocks due to new gear size.

Step 6. Go to UV in Shopbot software and make the following settings:

X from 1273.2395 to 2482.8171
y from 1273.2395 to 2482.8171
Z leave as is 1273.2395

At bottom of page change multiplier as follows:
X from 4 to 5
Y from 4 to 5
Z leave as is 4

[Towersonline]

Frank, Thanks for posting the upgrade info. Straight forward and to the point. I'm going to do a similar write up on the PRS software and PRS Prox switches.

I had asked ShopBot to create a new main topic for issues related to PRS assembly. The note I got back says they are looking into it.

It probably would be a good idea for a main topic for the Alpha upgrade. It sure would make searching a bit simpler.

[brian_h]

Frank, I'm hoping you'll share your cutting experience with the upgrade, good, bad, or otherwise.

[richards]

I think it would be a good idea to add some of this setup information to the Shopbot Wiki so that we can find it more easily as time goes on.

[fleinbach]

Brian,

Yes, I will good or bad. It could be a little while as I have been really tied up this week replacing 2 second floor bedrooms a tree fell on.

Also while I was in the upgrade mode on the Shopbot I decided it was time to change my monitor. I was using one of my old 20" KDS tube monitors which took up a lot of space but while shopping at the local flea markets noticed I could pick up a small LCD for around $50.00. But while searching I found a neat computer with a built in LCD screen. I never saw one of these before. It's compact like a laptop but doesn’t fold up. I thought why not replace both the computer and screen and really gain space.

Well the one I found didn't have a power supply so I came home and searched on eBay for one. I found many available made by Gateway. They are called Gateway profiles and I saw several models from 933MZ up to 2.8GH. The one I got was a 1.3GH for $107.00. I thought I'd point this out for anyone interested in a really neat compact solution for a computer and LCD screen to run the bot.

BTW. I did a speed test with the software Brady pointed out a few days ago. My old 800MZ computer was averaging 70.4 while this new one is registering 89.6

[beacon14]

I recently completed the 7.2/1 geared motor upgrade, and here is my report:

First the glitches: While the mechanics of swapping the motors are pretty basic, it required what I'm sure was divine intervention to get the washer and nut on the Y motor bolt without removing the Z axis for access. My Z axis is mounted as close to the Y motor as possible,and there was almost no way to get a wrench let alone my fingers into the spot just inside one of the Y carriage wheels where the threaded end of the bolt sticks through. I ended up taping the washer to a thin scrap of wood to hold it over the hole while pushing the bolt through from the outside, then just managed to get the nut on and, while holding my breath and saying a little prayer, slipped a thin 14mm wrench from my Jet planer between the rail of the X carriage and the end of the Y carriage and was able to get the threads engaged. Until that moment I was sure I was going to have to remove the Z axis.

I also ran into a problem with a cable that had been damaged in shipping - the cables are shipped attached to the motors with heavy duty heat shrink over the connectors. Apparently the motor flange had impacted the cable when the package was dropped at some point and it was enough to short two of the conductors to the shielding. I only found this out after hooking everything up and trying the motors while disengaged from the rack - there was a horrible grinding sound that I was sure was my gear box destroying itself. In short (no pun intended, and let me tell you I was not smiling at the time) I lost about an hour and a half diagnosing the problem, then replacing the new cable with one of my old cables all the way back to the control box.

I also wish our friends at ShopBot had taken advantage of Frank's efforts and put a copy of his instructions in the box - that would have saved me another half an hour on the forum looking for the unit values before I found this thread.

OK, enough venting. In the end the motors are replaced (and my wiring is completely re-routed, pics to follow), and it was worth it. Right off the bat the motors sound much smoother and quieter - more like a dentist's drill or other precision instrument than the meat grinder sound of the old motors. Speed tests confirm that the router is now by far the weakest link in the system whereas the motors and router were pretty evenly matched before. So only a small increase in speed so far - the spindle is on it's way - but dramatic improvements in cut quality and overall smoothness. Test cuts in MDF before and after the upgrade show a visible improvement (although I was getting pretty good cuts before.) Running a finger along the edge confirms the cut is much smoother. How much of this is from just replacing the pinions with new, larger ones and how much is from the motors I don't know and I guess it doesn't matter. I briefly considered putting the new gears on the old motors for a middle round of test cuts before taking the old motors off, but I had little enough time as it was and I had jobs waiting to test out the new motors.

Speaking of which, the results speak for themselves. After a weekend of cutting 35 sheets of melamine, I made these letters in beech, .28" deep, two passes with a 1/16" diameter straight bit. Two equal depth passes, no clean up pass. The same bit profiled the letters and cleared the area around them. The photo is exactly as they came off the machine except for vacuuming and blowing out the chips.


8748

[fleinbach]

David, Thanks for bringing my attention back to this topic to remind me I hadn’t given an update on the upgrade as yet.

At first I was a bit reluctant to post since after doing the upgrade I also made a change to my Y car before making any test cuts with the 7.2 upgrade. So I’m not sure how much this influenced the results. I wish I had taken the time to make some tests between changes but I had been contemplating the Y car change for over 2 years and once I was in upgrade mode I seemed to just keep going in that direction.

David’s comment kind of sums up my opinion as well.

“Test cuts in MDF before and after the upgrade show a visible improvement (although I was getting pretty good cuts before)”

In fact I agree with everything in David’s post pertaining to the way the Shopbot sounds. It is defiantly a smoother sounding machine.

As for the problem with getting a wrench on the Y motor bolt it was tight since I too have my spindle motor extremely close to that end of the Y car. But I was able to get the wrench in place without resorting to any extraordinary methods. But to do this I had to be standing in a precise position for my one hand to be able to position the wrench in front of the nut while my other hand pushed it against it. You defiantly need to be a contortionist to be able to do it.

[lto]

Our upgrade actually was fairly smooth, although some instructions may have saved calls to ShopBot. My 14 year old son accomplished most of it on his own.

Now for the really good part:
The machine with 3HP Colombo now performs to the quality level we envisioned prior to buying it nearly 3 years ago. We cut a lot of HDPE, cut quality has improved so much that we are seeing file time reductions of 30% along with greatly improved edge quality. We used to run a cleanup pass at .7 to reduce the chainsaw effect, now cleanup at nearly 3 times the speed produces a superior finish.

The motors do run hotter, but so far I see no reason for anyone to pass on this upgrade.

[brian_h]

I really appreciate the time you guys spent reporting on the upgrade. Thanks.

[gene]

So from what i gather the upgrade will be good if you are cutting mdf doors with a raised pannel look? Correct? this upgrade will be worth the investment ? Can someone post a photo of the inside cuts on mdf,? what does this do for the warranty on the new motors and cards? THANKS

[gene]

Hi ALl.
My bot has vexta Model ASM911AA motors dc 2.65v 2.1A
Are theese motors the 1to 1 motors or the 3.6 to 1 Motors?
Thanks

[Brady Watson]

They are direct drive or 1:1 motors. The PRT standard and PRS standard tools use 3.6:1 non-Alpha/non-feedback motors.

-B

[drodda]

Where do I find a price list of available upgrades for My PRT alpha online?

-D

[hespj]

"While we're on the subject of comm speed, you'll want to be sure to run the communication test application in the SB3 folder.".......Brady

What is this file called Brady, I don't seem to have anything that it could be.

John

[benchmark]

Hi John,

Are you running Control version 3.5.5 ?

Just type UT, one of the tools is Speedtest.exe


Regards


Paul

[hespj]

Yes Paul, I am running 3.5.5 (if the word "running" can be applied to my Shopbot).

I'll go over and try it now.

Thanks very much.

John

[hespj]

80%, so that's okay.

Just spent a week getting the motor upgrade to work and now find Z is losing position. I'll trawl through the forum to look for an answer (emailed support too). I suspect the software upgrade.

John

[Brady Watson]

John,
The most common mistake is to have the multiplier for the Z axis set to 5 when it in fact should be set to 4 in the VU fill-in sheet. Check it out.

-B

[hespj]

Actually it's set on 1, which always worked before the upgrade. If I do a JZ the distance moved is correct, so I think the multiplier is correct at 1.

Thanks for the advice though.

John

[Brady Watson]

John,
You might be thinking of another setting, as the multiplier is definitely not 1 for a 1:1 Alpha motor. You cannot go by the distance the tool jogs, as the Alpha motors have what can be called an 'electronic gearbox' that alters the steps (full steps) when jogging, instead of microstepping. This is what allows the Alpha to move at fine microsteps with good torque and jog at high speeds. If the tool doesn't move the correct distance (using a M* command), then your settings are not right.

These are the correct settings for a 7.2:1 motor upgrade running on both the X & Y axes, and your original Alpha 1:1 motor running on the Z axis:

Verify the following via the VU fill-in sheet:

X 2482.8171 with 5X multiplier
Y 2482.8171 with 5X multiplier
Z 1273.2395 with 4X multiplier

Test these settings & let us know if it fixed the problem.

-B

[hespj]

Brady, it's a 7.2:1 motor on the Z, an upgrade I did some time ago.

Z 1273.2395 with 1X multiplier was working fine until I did this latest X & Y upgrade, and upgraded to 3.5.5. This post verifies these settings:

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=26&post=44442#POST44442


Anyway, Ted tells me the dip switches should all be to left - my top one was to right (and so is the indexer now I look). So changed switches to all left, but now I need Z 2482.8171 with 1X multiplier to get correct movements. (The figures you give made MZ move 1/2 its proper distance, an JZ move 1/8th it's proper distance.)

Having got Z moving & jogging properly I I do a Z zero, then start cutting a file (engraving 1/32" deep) and Z immediately loses position. I tried another similar file earlier (engrave a rectangle to check calibration and squareness) with the same result.

MZ and JZ work on their own fine, and in a simple file like Z zero, but for some reason all goes pear shaped when cutting a file in earnest.

Here's the first few lines of the file, any ideas? Unfortunately it's in mm.

SA
SO,1,1
'Engraving
MS,300.,120.
JS,300.,120.
&Tool = 3
M3,720.73,233.00,6.00
MS,33.3,20.
M3,720.73,233.00,5.50
MS,50.,20.
M3,720.73,233.00,-0.50

[gene]

On a alpha 1 to 1 motor on the z axis my setting was at 2 and was loosing position, I called Chris @ shopbot and he had me to change it to 1 . this was after i upgraded the the x & y only to the 7.2.1 motors. now its fine ,no more loosing position.
Hope this helps all else fails call chris.

[Brady Watson]

John,
Something must be hokey...your UV should be 2979.3805 for the Z with the multiplier set to 5. My tool runs the identical setup (PRS drive system) and these are my numbers.

The reason the Z is set to 2979.3805 is because it uses a 25T pinion (or does yours use a 20T?) If you take the proportion of a 25T pinion divided by a 30T pinion, you get about .8333 If you mltiply this times the 2979.3805 UV for the Z, you wind up with 2482.8171 - the values for a 30T pinion - or XY UVs.

I just went out to my machine to verify, all multipliers regardless of axis with 7.2:1s is 5. See if changing to the 2979.3805 number with 5X mult. does it for you.

-B

[davidp]

Hi All,

I have just spent Saturday afternoon installing the new 7.2:1 motor upgrade and as they say, Houston we have a problem.

When I turn on the control box I get a a red light on input #4 and then the message that the stop on Input # 4 should be normally open. Press the reset and then I get a Driver / Motor fault at Location?? dialog.

In the control box all of the drivers have a green light, and everything appears to be connected correctly.

Which leads me to my question, It appears that one of the motors may be faulty. So is it possible to run 7.2:1 on the z's and an old motor on the y or am I better to re install all of the old motors. Which means I would still have to work out which motor is faulty.

I have a job that has to be out the door monday and I need the the Bot to be working.

I know I should not have proceeded with the upgrade until the pressure was off but I really had not choice other wise the upgrade would have not been installed until March.

Any help would be appreciated.

David

[drodda]

Maybe we should have a new thread where everyone who installs the Alpha motor upgrade lists their problems and then the solution once it is fixed. I seem to see almost everyone who gets the upgrade has a few hurdles to clear to get up and running again. Is this due to lack of proper instructions and documentation when you buy the upgrade or something else? I am currently waiting on the upgrade to arrive. I always read every post on this as it seems like it is not as easy as it should be. Or perhaps the people who have upgraded and had no issues did not take the time to post the positives.

Like David Mentioned about downtime. Most of us using our machines on a daily basis don't have a break in the action to play with upgrading and debugging problems.We can't do without our machines for any length of time.

[drodda]

Brady,

I have a PRTALPHA with a 12" Z. If my memory serves me correct the 12" Z required a different motor or ratio than a 6" Z did when i bought mine July 2005. Do you know anything about this and if this is correct what would my new settings be for the Z axis in the software after I install my new motors?

[Brady Watson]

Dave,
Do you have a 10:1 motor on your Z?

-B

[pfulghum]

Here is one other thing to check if you get a motor fault (I used to get faults intially with a Gecko G-Job integration)

Power on the control box with the cover open (keep you fingers away from the power).

You will see a 7-segment led on the Alpha control board. After you "reset" the box, and you get a motor fault you will see a number which represents which driver is having a problem. The drivers are numbered right to left. That might give you and indication of the problem.

let me know.
-- pat

[davidp]

Pat,

It is difficult being in a different time zone and 3/4 of a day ahead of you. It is already tomorrow here. :-) sunday approx 12.30 pm

Thank you, I have seen that LED When I initally power up the Control box it shows an "E" but after cycling the E-Stop and then Reset it shows a 1.

I have an auxillary Z so I have 5 Drivers in the box, from right to left, x1, x2, y, z1,z2.

Last night I swapped the cables for x1 and x2 to check and it was still the same, so therefore is it possible it is a driver and not a motor even though the leds on the drivers are green.

Later today I will swap the drivers around, ie put the Y driver into position for the X1 and see what transpires. At least if it is the Y driver then it is easier to change than the X1.

Memo to Shopbot. How about some extra space in the control box. This would not only make it easier to work on but would give a greater area and thus keep the box cooler.

Thanks for your help,

Regards,
David

[gene]

David,
When i did the upgrade mine did the same thing. What i did was i tried to change the ribbon cables without taking out the control board, i on the x drive where the 2 ribbon cables connect to the board i missed a row of pins. after talking to Chris @ shopbot he had me to take out the 3 screws and check this , sure enough the first clip was only on the first row of pins the next clip i put on the 2nd and third rows and nothing on the fourth, while it was like this i couldnt get the #4 e stop to clear for anything. After putting the bins in the right locations it cleared. hope this helps

[drodda]

Brady,

How do I identify if I have a 10:1 motor on the Z?
I remember them telling me something like that when I asked why the 12" Z upgrade was so expensive.

[Brady Watson]

Read off the motor number & email or post.

-B

[drodda]

you have mail

[davidp]

Gene, Pat Brady and to all on the Forum,

Eureka!!! It works, it works, all I have to do now is tie up the cables and tidy up but I will have to leave that for tomorrow. I will be up and running by 8 am. and with luck I will be caught up by tomorrow night.

I took Gene's advice and re seated the ribbon cables on the control board and while they were in the right positions I think that the cable to Driver 1 was not quite pushed home enough. Simple.

This forum is the best single reason why one should buy a ShopBot

Thank you all

Regards,

David