Salute to all the sign pro's

[nick]

Hello all. I would like to start a thread for all the sign pro's and other woolworkers who use CNC routers that have or have developed a successful business using CNC routers.

I envy you guys and I salute you. It is not as easy as it appears

I am new to the shopbot business world. I have purchased a router about 6 months ago in hopes to develop a part time idea into a full time gig. I am currently employed full time so I'm not getting too discouraged from my failures but sign making, even at it's simplistic form isn't quite that cut and dry.

Of course, the design and routing is pretty straight forward, but the painting, and masking or masking and painting...is driving me nuts.

I have plenty of CNC experience but no painting experience...except single colors...I can do that all day, but unfortunately for me...people want multi colors HAHA.

For someone starting out with a business like CNC routing...what would the pro's recommend.

Stay away from painting, sell the CNC service, or get deep into signs and work throught all the issues of no experience.

I would like you thoughts, words of wisdom, experiences, anything...because I know that their are alot of people like me that bought CNC router in hopes to start a business, but know that alot of work is ahead of them...

It must be an awesome feeling to have a business and love what you do.

I'm curious to hear feedback on this topic, especially from the pro's who make what I struggle with look like a 7 year old can do it.

Thanks

[myxpykalix]

Nick,
How old are you? My first suggestion would be to see if Joe Crumley would adopt you.lol

Joe, I've often thought you should think about charging for an apprenticeship program or teach others what you know. I bet you would be surprised at how many others might be interested in learning what you know.

[nick]

Hi Jack...34

[joe]

Nick,

There's a need, on this forum, for more sign people. I've been here for several years and haven't seen that many. I know they are out there, but don't seem to get many to join in. We've lost some over the years.

As far as that goes, not many people post photo's, in any department, of what they are doing with their CNC's.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[myxpykalix]

Nick, you must go to the planet Alderon, there you will learn from the jedi master "Joe-DA"

[nick]

Thanks for all your help Joe,

[signtist]

Hello Nick, I've been in the business all my life. I'm a ol' SIGNPAINTER.
Before I got my ShopBot, I listened to everybody who had a router. Someone once said to design the sign with the painting in mind. For instance, if you put a double border on a panel, think about how you will be able to seperate the colors without masking. If you outline the copy, "Pocket cut" the letters so the painting os easier. I've seen the technology dictate the design. The painting should not be that difficult if you simply do a little planning in ther design.

[keith_outten]

Nick,

Consider using Dupont Corian for signs. No masking required you just route, spray paint then sand the surface with a random orbital sander. Labor savings are significant. I have produced hundreds of ADA door signs using this technique and exterior signs up to ten feet long.

[chodges]

We cheat a lot. Fellers (http://www.fellers.com) sells "paint mask," made by Avery. This stuff comes in either 10 or 50-yard rolls in widths from 15" to 30". It is basically treated paper (so the paint won't soak through) with adhesive on the back and a removable liner over the adhesive.

You can cut paint mask with either a plotter (made for cutting vinyl) or a laser.

You can get really crisp paint edges if you squeege the paint mask to your substrate good and tight before you spray your paint.

This is how we handle multiple colors on sign plates.

The REAL tricky part is when you have 2 or more colors that meet in an engraved area. You can't really mask inside an engraved area very well, so we usually try to avoid these situations if possible.

Hope this helps!

[ernie_balch]

We started a sign business in 1994 in order to pay for my homebuilt router. Up until the last couple of years we could easily sell routed signs and name our price.

Now routers are everywhere, and the software is so easy to use anyone can carve a sign. We now have to bid on signs and someone else is always cheaper.

I think the router will follow the path of vinyl cutters and wide format printers allowing increasing numbers of sign makers to drive the profits down.

So work hard, use quality materials and charge what it is worth. Don't use your expensive machine to crank out $40 signs.

ernie
www.balchsigns.com (http://www.balchsigns.com)

[nick]

Hi Ernie...It seems to that way when technology is affordable, all the players get one. Good advice...I'm sure for some, it's hard to charge enough in a competitive market...but you are so true, charge what the market value is. Your signs look excellent. Do you charge by the square ft?

[ernie_balch]

I find that the $100 per square foot number is too cheap on small signs and too expensive on large signs. We look at the difficulty of making a design, the materials cost and charge as much as we can with a clear conscience.

I won't turn on the router for less that about $350 but we rarely get more than $2000 for a sign. One of our local signmakers says, $1000 per sign has a nice feel to it.

ernie

[jamesgilliam]

Ernie, I don't agree that $100 is too much on a large sign. The ones I have done that are 4'x8' have all had almost $1000 in materials and welding fees in them to start. (I have custom aluminum frames done if I do the installation of the sign). Then there is labor for the design, painting and installation, which on a simple sign that size starts at 3K. The first one I did for a company I used to work for was $4500 and change. I found out when I installed it that they had sent my designs out to other sign companies in the area, and the next bid on them was a little over 6K. Personally I think that $100 a sqft is the minimum charge on a large sign. Joe, Ray, what do you think?

[thecustomsignshop]

Hey Nick

As you know, buying any CNC router does not insure you will get business and make a good living. Nor have I met anyone to date who loves every aspect of their business. Accounting, billing, some customers, taking the trash out....

I love doing CNC work, but I needed to love other aspects of the sign business to make a living. Now I love my business and more importantly, I love working for myself...

Maybe try developing a nitch and a business plan.

When we first started out, we were not in all aspects of the sign business. Nor were we all about signs, but as time went on, we developed a really good business.

My business began to take off when I figured out that my customers really wanted more than just dimensional signs.

We also will do 3d and 2d machining for the woodworking industry from time to time.

Honestly, I found concentrating on only one thing limited us and to come to the realization that the CNC machine is one of many tools you may require.

We now have 1 Shopbot, a second in the works, a vinyl cutter, a large format printer and a wood / metal working shop, powder coating, sand blasting cabinet, and so on, all because our customers asked us for things and I knew we could do it and it would result in repeat business. The job always seems easier when you get repeat business. Great way to gain soild experience. It will come...

Stick to your guns on a well thought out cost structure. Figure out what you need and compare that to the industry, if you’re close, go for it. If your off, why and make the needed corrections. You will hate working for free or in the red, so to speak.

To help get yourself out their, Doc (Bill P) gave me great advice at a shopbot camp. When your not do anything, do samples. Send them to a targeted client. It works.

While it has not been easy at time, it beats working for someone else and in the end, we love what we do..

www.TheCustomSignShop.com

[thecustomsignshop]

Sorry, back to my long winded post:

Finishing work is not for everyone, but can be a lot of fun.

My recomendation, use sign foam or any other HDU until you get the finishing down. It is more money up front, but easier to work with and will save you labor.

I find it is the most time consuming part of sign making, next to getting permitts. :-)

I spray almost everything, makes the process much easier. HVLP. Try this, if you think out the colors before you machine the sign, and try to create a ledge for each color, you will make it easier for yourself and could give the sign a greater demensional look...

We use vinyl whenever possible for fine details. Once clear coated the vinyl lasts for a long, long time....

Good Luck - Jim

[ernie_balch]

James, I was not including the frame, mounting and installation. That all costs more and would be a separate item. We almost never install the signs and we don't get the permits either.

We follow up on lost bids and usually find out that we were the high bid.

ernie

[jamesgilliam]

Ernie, Now I see we are doing different things. Your local signmaker that says $1000 has a nice feel to it, how much of the work are you having to do to make that? I would probably carve a 4'x8' for that, if it was just the design and cutting and they supplied the material. I have two local printer/sign shops that send me customers who want a carved sign, or even just the instalation of signs they have had made somewhere else. For doing this they get a finders fee of up to 10% if I get the entire sign job, no fee on installations. Only bad thing to this is if they have gotten a really cheap sign, and my installation is more than the cost of it. And it has happened several times. James

[jhicks]

Nick, signs are such a unique piece that there is no single best way or single strategy, or single finishing technique, or material. In fact as you develop your design and fabrication skills, you will no doubt find many interesting materials, finishes, and techniques to employ on signs weather dimensional or simple recessed letters. Thats really the fun, creative, and challenging aspect besides making a fair profit.
So my advice is, try to find a good finishing material you like to use at least as a standad and develop materials and techniques to mask, spray, hand paint, build signs in layers, multiple materials, etc,etc, etc.
There are many many posts here accompanied by great tips, photos, web sites, and discussions on techniques, pricing and basically all one could hope for to read, experiment, and study.
Its a virtual design consulting center with many good folks who have all been very helpful to me and visa versa.
In all that, I can say it is a lot of fun but I have yet to meet the rich(financially) sign maker.
Many rich in other ways but I would say signs are the best excuse to develop your design and fabrication skills and techniques but I would also not limit myself to signs. There are so many creative things one can do and many simple unchallenging parts or pieces one can make that do help pay the bills.
So have fun, develop relationships with others here and elsewhere in the business, and never overlook new opportunities to build on what you know and expand beyond any narrow niche.
One of the best features of CNC machines is their versitility so use it to the best of your ability and always add to your knowlege and base capability.
have fun and good luck. I'll be looking for photos as you move forward.

[thecustomsignshop]

Jerry, very well said....

[joe]

Nick,

Thanks to you for posting this topic.

I’m considering offering a workshop for those entering the sign trade.

Here’s my idea.

A good workshop should be, a short high intensity, periods where the student is introduced to creative techniques, materials and applications.

There should be few students with plenty one on one time.

[lstovall]

Joe,
Great idea, I have always admired your work and it was a pleasure to meet you at Gary Beckwiths' CNC workshop. Let me know, I need it.

Leon