Hard Wood Cabinet Doors

[gary_b]

I see some post about MDF doors and files but I would like to build solid hardwood doors. Saw some old posts on the subject but nothing recent. Is gluing up boards and cutting a profile out a good idea or will they be subject to warping with age ? Any software or sites to visit, or any ideas in general would be greatly appreciated. My Shopbot CNC is only a 4' X 4' but I would think it would serve the purpose well for what I have in mind.
Thanks In Advance...Gary_B

[richards]

The main reason that I wouldn't try using solid wood for cabinet sized doors is wood movement. The 'traditional' method of using rails, stiles, and a floating center panel allowed the panel to expand/contract depending on the weather and moisture throughout the year. I would imagine that you would have some serious cracking within the first year with a solid door.

MDF is totally different. It is fairly stable, but since there is no grain, minor expansion/contraction won't split it apart.

[patricktoomey]

Gary,

You would definitely be looking at some warpage potential. One way to help minimize that would be to make sure you alternate the grain curvature from one piece to the next so looking at the end of the panel, the grain would make a constant S looking undulation from one end to the other. A 24" solid door will also expand and contract by 1/8" or more with changes in humidity. So I would only do this as an overlay door, not an inset door that would be trapped by the face frame.

The other issue that I can think of is that although it would probably look ok in the end, it would not be what most people are used to seeing in solid wood. Most people are used to seeing the separate panel and either mortise and tennon or mitered corners on the separate frame. It would end up looking like an RTF (Rigid Thermofoil) door. Since that is the case, RTF would maybe be a better choice since it is cheaper, won't warp or expand/contract noticeably regardless of humidity. Of course, this all comes down to your needs and the designs you want to do. If a flat panel with routed profile is what you're looking for then I say give it a shot and see how it looks.

One last thing I would caution you on is cutter selection, cutter speed and feed rates. If you're doing this in a hardwood like maple, you need a super sharp cutter and you'll really have to watch the feed rate and cutter RPM. Too fast and you'll get tearout. Too slow and you'll burn the wood. I would probably try multiple passes too, I don't think one pass would be very safe.

As far as software, if you search this forum you should find posts about a program, I think it's called freedoors. It's supposed to be very good for doing routed profiles on MDF doors and this should be no different for solid wood doors. I haven't tried it yet myself but I'm about to make some MDF doors and I'm going to give it a shot.

Good Luck, and if you try it, please let us know what the results are.

[terryd]

Gary, you can do solid doors but I found in my experience the most trouble free way is as follows: 1.) Keep the staves 2" and under. 2.) Pay good attention to the growth rings and alternate each one when gluing up. 3.) Keep all the grain running parallel 4.) Router the face with the panel a full 1" thick then plane the back until it hits 7/8" and then finish. This helps relieve the stresses a bit. 5.) only use these doors in overlay applications beause the dimensions will grow and shrink with the seasons and a face framed cabinet door will stick. Basically do what you would when you do panels for 5 piece door and leave the extra 1/8" of material on.

Terry

[terryd]

Jeez Patrick you must type with more that two fingers!

Terry ;-)

[patricktoomey]

That's the benefit of being a woodworker AND a computer geek. I can make sawdust and also type at 120 words per minute :-)

[terry]

Gary,
I've been making 5 peice raised panel doors in my shop for 7 years now and we do a lot of glue up for various projects besides doors. The frame of a 5 peice door does a lot to control the warping of the panel and the panel is cut under size by 1/4" both directions to allow for movement due to humidity.

I do not make solid glued up doors, either flat or routed. While most national door manufactures make this type of door, they do so with a whole list of ways to not provide a warranty for a bowed door. I don't what the lost income in remaking the door or the bad name that you can get labled with because of it.

Now, why do I have this view of this type door? Because of where I live- coastal Texas. Remember this: the only thing that makes wood move is water. Not oil base products or solvents, only water. So, if wood expands or shrinks it is because it is absorbing water or water is leaving. This is almost always because of the humidity-water at the molecular level. And every time the water travels in or out of the wood it moves, not just expansion or contraction, but in any direction it may want to move. Sometimes it only moves slightly, other times can ruin the door. But it ALWAYS moves if it is subject to humidity fluctuations.

Now, if I lived in a dry climate, very dry, or a CONSISTANTLY wet one, then that would be another matter. Allow the wood to aclamate to the local conditions, then make the door. However, if I live in a wet climate that is VERY COLD in the winter, nix the solid wood door. Indoor heat produces extreamly dry air, thus sucking the moisture out of the door and Presto!, warped door.

The others here have given good advice. I personally don't like MDF doors on my cabinets, though I put them on cabinets for others. I like wood. If you want a wood door, bite the bullet, get the router bits and go to town. If you are going to do it on your 'bot you will do a lot of work making jigs that work. And be very careful with the panel cut. Keep the RPM at manufacturers spec and make at least 4 passes around. You'll need real vacuum and pucks to hold the panel. Much easier for a one time thing to do a router table set-up. Remember, half the fun is in the learning. Keep reading and thinking, work your brain. And keep asking questions.

Terry C.

[gary_b]

I appreciate all the input. Looks like I need to nix the solid wood idea...So, a CNC in the cabinet business would not be benificial...With the exception of corbells or carvings on a panel face frame ?? I own a Shopbot CNC and a small 1 man cabinet shop..Just looking for ideas and sometimes I just don't think outside the box enough..Thanks Again...gary

[stickman]

Gary,

What about using the shopbot to cut out some more detailed arc top five piece door parts? Us it to cut out cabinet parts? Cutting special countertop shapes?

Just a drop in the bucket uses for a shopbot in the cabinet shop...

Jay

[terryd]

Gary,
In my shop we build cabinets and the shopbot does all the cutting and most important to me the point to point drilling. We don't optimize the cuts either. Basically we get one box per sheet and whatever is left over gets cut into fillers and blocks on the table saw. Quickly. With labour and benefits my guys cost me +$20 per hour and a sheet of 5/8 melamine is $22 per.
As the bot cuts one box the previous one gets built. Sets a pace. Doors are all five pc. and are machined and built the same way they have for the last twenty years which is why my competitors outsource them. The only time the bot sees doors is when someone wants a design engraved on the face of the panel then we charge $75 per hour for machine time and do it when every has gone home for the day.

Terry

[gerald_d]

Just for international comparison; Van gets $2.20/hr, a 16mm sheet (9'x6') of melamine is about $60 and we charge about $50/hr.

[patricktoomey]

Gary,

Although I think you're right that the CNC would be of minimal benefit for hardwood doors, it is tremendously valuable for the case work. I wrote a boxcutter type program that lets me put in the list of cabinets and sizes. It then creates all the case components, generates all operations like dados, shelf holes, drawer slide clip holes, etc. It optimizes the components onto as few sheets as possible and then generates the .sbp files for the ShopBot controller. This saves me an incredible amount of time. Now my employees can take the completed parts off the bot, glue them up and assemble them. No more cutting sheets by hand - ever. I figure I save 1-2 man/days of labor per kitchen and the parts are always perfect. There are several boxcutter programs out there that you can get for free or at least cheap, there have been many posts for them in this forum. I may, at some point let mine loose as an open source project since it works so well for me. You may also want to think about the possibility of doing carvings on doors which can make you some pretty good money if you're in the right market.

[bruce_clark]

Just in case anybody who missed the old post about FreeDoors, here is the link to download the most recent version and view the "Getting Started" manual/tutorial.

Also, if someone would like to contribute some photos of their ShopBot cutting cabinet doors produced by FreeDoors, I would be more than happy to host them on the FreeDoors webpage under a "gallery" along with credits to the photographer.

http://home.centurytel.net/bwclark/

Thanks,

Bruce

[Ryan Patterson]

Gary,
Cutting cabinet parts on the Shopbot can vary beneficial as Patrick as said. I cut my parts almost the same as Patrick only all the parts for a list of cabinets are nested over as many sheets as needed for the job. While the Bot is cutting the next sheet I will edge band the parts that have already been cut. By the time the last sheet is cut all the parts are edge banded and ready to be assembled. I developed Cabinetpartspro that will calculate all the parts needed for the cabinet you enter in. There are several options in Cabinetpartspro for you to be able to set it up to calculate the parts the way you build your cabinets. If you do not see an option that fits your needs send me an email and I will do what I can to give you the options you need. There is a free version you can download to give it a try. www.cabinetpartspro.com (http://www.cabinetpartspro.com) Once you have downloaded if you have any question send me an email.
Ryan

[les_linton]

If you want to build solid wood door panels, one easy solution to help eliminate cracking and rattle due to the expansion and contraction of solid wood is to use "space balls" in the style and rails. I think they come in three sizes between .19 and .26. You use two in the groove of each edge and assemble the door.

They work pretty good in my opinion.

www.spaceballs.com (http://www.spaceballs.com)

Les

[gene]

Gary.
I have a bot as well as most the people on this forum and are also a small 1 man cabinet shop. I mainly use my bot for cutting case parts and any irregular shape i need for a job like a corner shelf or window valance over a sink base. Also i can engrave on the fronts of drawers or tilt fronts or doors > I use the program vcarve.com and it works well . There is a guy in fla that has a case cutting and optimising program for free trial or a pro version cheap. the pro version has alot of usefull options in it and i think its about 250.00 His site is cabinetpartspro.com Watch the tutorial and you can do this fairly easily. Also on occasion i also get a request for a sign or to cut out letters for some folks, easy money.
Alot of the time my bot "PEDRO" is resting but when i need him to work he does and does EXACTLY what i say right or wrong . Good Luck Gene Rhodes