PrtAlpha

[kivimagi]

Does anyone know the details of the prtAlpha coming out in April? An extra $2000 makes the machine much less affordable.

Regards,

[erik_f]

I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but I have seen parts of the prototype, and I think its worth the extra cash...I don't know where your getting your numbers from...or how you even know about it, but like I said the next generation of Shopbot is based on the present design, but they, from at least what I've seen, will have very little in common. The new y-car will be made from a single piece of steel, with extruded aluminum supports bolted to the underside. I did not get to look at the new X-car as much, but this will be a much improved version of what is out there now...also using extruded aluminum for supports instead of unistrut under the rails...but the x car as a whole has change in the fact that it will be much more ridged...I also think they were working on stiffening up the table while I was there too...I only was able to snoop a little bit, but I can say I was very impressed. I think the new design is an exercise in ridgitity...and from what I saw they really don't seem to be messing around.

Erik F.

[mike b (Unregistered Guest)]

is there going to be a beefed up benchtop version as well?

[kivimagi]

I think its for all models, they have a small quip on the products page about the increase, etc.

I guess the unit is going from open loop to closed loop as well.

[gerald_d]

Quote: "In late April 2004, ShopBot will introduce the PRTalpha ShopBot - a new line of PRT CNC tools with improved performance that will replace our existing product line. There will be a price increase of approximately $2000 for a standard size ShopBot. Customers who purchase ShopBots from us in the period before the new tool is available will be able to buy the PRTalpha upgrade package at a charge of approximately the difference in price between the old and new models. Watch this web site for more details. You'll be able to see and test-drive the new PRTalpha at the Jamboree "

[billp]

Just one MORE good reason to come down to Durham for the Jamboree.........

[mike.b (Unregistered Guest)]

if only i could afford the time for the trip....i hope we see some photos of the new machines after the jamboree!

[mike.b (Unregistered Guest)]

probably a dumb question but what is open loop/closed loop?

[gerald_d]

Have my earlier posts here been deleted or moved?

[kerrazy]

Open loop means that no informatio is bing sent back to the control box circuitry, where closed loop continuosly sends info back and forth so it knows exactly where the motor positions are.

[gerald_d]

Dale, be careful that your post doesn't get destroyed. I replied to Mike a long time ago and he even replied to me after that, but we must have stepped on some toes because our posts got deleted.

[kerrazy]

Hey Gerald, was my explanation correct?
Dale

[gerald_d]

Yes.

Stepper motors are typically used in open loop. "Servo" motors are typically used for closed loop . . . . . .

(maybe this speculation hit a nerve?)

[supertigre]

Will an Alpha upgrade be available to current prt owners as cable bots had an upgrade to prt???

Curious minds want to know.

[erik_f]

I'm quite sure...and I think some of my posts were deleted as well.

[gerald_d]

From my cache, this (http://www.scapenotes.com/original.htm) is how this thread looked for a while.

[mike.b (Unregistered Guest)]

yoikes...deleted posts! i dont mean to be a trouble maker...but..a request from shopbot that certain things not be discussed would be completely understandable from a company that is putting alot into the design of a new product that is different from what everyone else is doing ... deleted posts causes me to lose the confidence i have gained in the product by seeing an open forum like this. (ok you can delete this message now)

[slendon]

I'm with mike.b on this .......I've been following this forum for 6 months or so and have got to within a whisker of ordering a machine. Have decided to come to the jamboree to fix my mind, this forum, and shobots' open attitude so far has been a very big part of my decision to go the shopbot route. Time for Shopbot to post something here to clear up this thread, the last thing I want, is to feel manipulated.

Steve

[robtown]

Guys calm down. The forum has been acting strangely for a couple days, about half the time I've tried to pull it up since Sunday, it has given me a "page not found" error... I don't think ShoBot has anything to so with this, nothing nefarious going on here.

[elcruisr]

I'm with Rob, I've experienced several times when the board was down lately. That hardly qualifies for a conspiracy. With several server targeted viruses and the usual headaches of computer technologies why don't we stop rumor mill already.

[robtown]

You know, since I posted that last message, I've noticed unmarked black helicopters, and men in black suits follwing me (or should it be men in ShopBot blue suits?)... ;)

[gerald_d]

I don't think that there is anything nefarious going on here either, and that is why I posted the link to the cached page. It should be obvious from that there should have been nothing contentious in that speculation on servos maybe replacing steppers. I am sure that Nancy will be along shortly to tell us what happened to the deleted posts.

But, I can also appreciate how unsettling such an event can be to someone who is about to buy a SB based on their confidence in this Forum. My purchase 3 years ago was based entirely on this Forum, and if the Forum acted up then, in the same week as a 35% price hike was announced, I probably wouldn't be here today.

[Support]

This is the notice ShopBot sent out to prospective customers for whom we had email contact info.

"Shortly after April 15, 2004, ShopBot will introduce a new line of PRT CNC tools that will replace the existing product line. The new CNC tools will be called PRTalpha ShopBots. The new ShopBots will have improved performance. There will be a price increase of approximately $2000 for a standard size ShopBot. Customers purchasing new ShopBots in the period before the new tool is introduced will have the option of later upgrading to the PRTalpha version for a charge of approximately the price differential between the old and new model. Details on our new line of ShopBot PRTalphas and pricing (as well as upgrade opportunities) will be posted on the web site in the first week of April. You'll be able to see and test-drive the new PRTalpha at the Jamboree. Please call our toll-free # (888) 680-4466 or email us (info at shopbottools.com) if you have any questions."

It's the same thing we're telling people when they call. You have the option of getting the current tool NOW, putting it into use and making money during the time until the PRTalpha is shipping. Then, if you wish, you can upgrade. If your application absolutely has to have the improved proformance and speed, then wait. Don't know the exact price for the upgrade but it will depend on when you bought the PRT. The business people are crunching numbers as this posts.

[pacoisa@cooptel.qc.ca]

I'm currently considering SB, and I hope SB tools will provide info to potential buyers BEFORE discontinuing current version. Strangly, my e-mail to SB about it is not answered yet!!! This s'getting on my (already stressed out by starting a buisness) nerve!!! If it's new and "better", why not showing it!!!

[Nancy]

Interesting, Gerald, thanks for the link. Feel free to repost. The server that hosts the forum was having issues yesterday. I can assure you that I didn't delete any posts on Mar 30 - was having some minor foot surgery done and they didn't allow me to take a computer into the op room (could listen to book on tape though!)

[pacoisa@cooptel.qc.ca]

THERE! Now lets wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gerald_d]

As I read this, the current PRT will be discontinued within 2 weeks. Anybody who has approached their bank to loan $5895 for a purchase of a standard ShopBot in 3 weeks time will now have to find $7895. This is very short notice. Couldn't the PRT be supplied for a while longer for those that already have business plans in motion?

[mikeb]

okay i am waiting as patiently as i can for details on the new machines.
like...why are the new machines called 'alpha'?

[dvanr]

I am in the process of building the steel table for the PRT96 ( a bigger job than I first realized) I am a little concerned by Eric's post on March 29th,Eric writes "I also think they were working on stiffening up the table while I was there too" Seeing as I won't be finished in time. Will the new Alpha PRT fit the old PRT table design?? If so. What special stiffening has been added?

[contactccw]

I think it is fair to say that Shopbot would want to provide an AFFORDABLE upgrade path for existing PRT owners. It is, after all, in their best interests in the long run.

(By the way, should someone at Shopbot catch this, know that I am your biggest fan, but, 2000.00 dollars is not what I would consider an affordable upgrade cost for a PRT96 that is 1 year and 4 months old.)

A detailed chart explaining the upgrade path, expected benefit and cost handed out during the Jamboree would be most helpful...

[erik_f]

The table looked the same as the old one(actually was an old one) but they had some corner braces on it by the legs...something we could do ourselves with a metal brake and drill. I guess I would have to say 2K for a major upgrade like this isn't really that much especially in a world when you can spend 7K-20K just on software. What would piss you off more...if they charged you for an upgrade...or just came out with newer stronger design and charged the same price as the machine you just bought 6 months ago?

Erik

[mikeb]

now thats just silly...i am sure there is more to the new machines than corner braces!!

[slendon]

"details of the new machine will be posted on the web site in the first week of April"
?

I'm just itching to know what the new machine is.

[billp]

Rumor has it that the motors will be replaced by Porsche turbos; ramping will now be handled by hydraulics; a cruise control feature will be added; a leather console comes with the new control box; GPS sensors will tell an owner where both HE and the machine are at all times; and I think a Dolby DVD player is going to be an option...

[mikeb]

i was kind of hoping for a back massage attachment...is this possible?

[pappy]

Well, this is the first week in April and tomorrow is the last day of "that". Presumeably we can expect some "details" to be posted tomorrow!

[srwtlc]

Whoa!! Bill, if you slap a little chrome on that puppy and make it do 0-60 in 3.86 seconds I might have to trade this in.

8905
Nah! Maybe not

[grant]

Details are now available...

http://www.shopbottools.com/PRTalpha.htm

[mikeb]

wow..looks good.i will be happy to pay the extra 1300 for all that extra speed on the benchtop i am saving up for. any chance of seeing a picture of the new benchtop model?

[gerald_d]

My guess all along was that the "alpha" part of the PRTalpha came from the AlphaStep motors/system that Oriental Motor announced (http://www.orientalmotor.com/automated/newsrelease/42.htm) early last year. Now we have another mouthful of a name (5 syllables) - shall we start a little competition of an easier nickname for the P_R_T_al_pha?

[billp]

The "Hotbot" ?

[harold_weber]

Regarding the PRTalpha announcement yesterday:

Under "UPGRADE INFO" are the words:

"Please see pricing sheet for more info on upgrades."

I don't see anything about upgrade prices on the pricing sheet, am I suffering from pre-coffee blindness??

[gerald_d]

"HotBot" gets my vote!

[erik_f]

I talked to shopbot this morning and they said the upgrade will be $4000 for any machine bought before March 1st of this year.

Erik F.

[billp]

Erik,
I also just spoke with Shopbot and there are really three different time frames for the upgrade package. The price you have listed above is for machines bought before January of this year, not March. They will have the full listing of upgrade packages posted on the web page over the weekend...

[sheldon@dingwallguitars.com]

Very impressive. Will Partwizard II have 3D capabilities?

[erik_f]

I think they said from Jan 1st to March 1st buyer will pay $3500. Before Jan 1st is $4000. March 1st and after buyer will pay $2000. I'm not upgrading...I like mine just the way it is...I don't really need the speed especially since the bot isn't going to be any more accurate. But its nice the option is there for the future.

Erik

[pappy]

Maybe someone can explain my confusion here. The difference in price from my prt60/120 to the new "Hotbot" is $2000. The upgade is double that????

[Tony Cameron (Unregistered Guest)]

All sounds good... but are the faster cutting speeds useful for plastics? I cant find any literature that says you should cut plastics at anything over 250-300IPM and at the moment we are breaking plenty of bits going at only 70-100IPM!

We are still learning at the moment and experimenting with feeds, speeds and bits.. had the tool since the beginning of April.

[Tony Cameron (Unregistered Guest)]

But assuming you can go to 35-40IPS XY rapid traverse and then increase the cutting speed to around 250IPM on the plastics we cut without worrying about snapping bits in half then we will definitley go for it!

Changing the Move and Jog speeds to those settings and then previewing the toolpaths to get an estimated time really shows just how much faster this thing is, its damn fast!

[slendon]

Name competition round two:

I have all the symptoms of a new love affair, I can't stop thinking about (alpha) BETTY, I know she's going to cost me a lot of money be demanding of my time and possibly end in tears. But I can't sleep at night for thinking about her.
BETTY: the Blue Electric Tool Travelling Youngster
as I get to know you more will you be that Beautifully Engineered Three Trollied Yeoman that I dream about.

Time will tell no doubt.

BETTY the BOT...........how am I going to break the news to the wife?

I'll just rerun that video clip one more time before I go back to bed.

[gerald_d]

@ Steve.

Doug, I presume that for the upgrade, you are not handing back your existing controller and motors. In other words, you are purchasing a second set of motors and controller, hence the higher price.

Can someone who is going the upgrade route, please consider a poor man at the bottom of Africa who would be ecstatic to receive your charitable donations of old, slow, obsolete, worthless controllers and motors?

[weslambe]

I was researching building my own cnc machine until I ran across the Shopbot. In my research I found that I could have built a good cnc machine with servo motors, gekko steppers and the rest for somewhere around 4,000.00

I like my Shopbot, but feel like I now own an Edsel! Yeah, it gets you there, but it still looks like it's sucking a lemmon.

4 Grand to upgrade is out of my league and I am sorely disappointed since my bot is less than a year old.

I guess I will either buy a new bot or make one of my own for my next machine.

Wes

[pappy]

Gerald

Why should that second set of motors and controller cost any more for the upgrade than they do for the Hotbot?

[kerrazy]

I am having a hard time locating upgrade pricing...Help?

Is it laid out for you or are we just calculating it from the old PRT pricing?

Dale

[billp]

Doug,
I'm going to guess at this one. Since the Hotbot has now been unveiled it would seem that some people considering a purchase might hold off until it is ready to ship (in May apparently..). If enough people do this it would mean that there would be little/NO cash flow into Shopbot for a month or so. Very few businesses can last long with a drought like that, so it seems to me that they are offering an incentive to keep orders coming in, but at the same time allowing these very new owners their upgrade at close to cost. While they might not make any profit on these 20-30(?) new machines, it would still help keep the business rolling ( and I think it's the legitimate goal of any business to make a profit..).
However if they were to offer the SAME deal to all 3,000 of us previous owners, it wouldn't make a lot of business sense. I'm sure a considerable amount of time/energies were spent in researching,testing the new machine, and these are costs which will rightfully be included in the newer pricing.
Sure it seems like a major step up financially when compared to older machines, but if it performs anywhere NEAR the specs that are posted on the web page it will still be a major bargain.
I'll bet that the guys over at Komo, Multi-Cam,etc. would LOVE to be able to offer a machine at these prices, and their owners are probably wondering; "what the hell are these guys complaining about?"
Obviously this is all conjecture on my part, but it seems to fit the scenario...

[dvanr]

I'm still working away at getting the steel table finished , due to distance I'll opt to order the new Alpha kit. That said the new machine has already been renamed after I looked at the new diff in the exchange rate calc .....ShockBot.

[erik_f]

Dale, I called to get pricing...I couldn't find it either under Grants post...but I did post the pricing that they gave me above. I guess I can understand how some might be a bit upset at the fact that the new bot is only 2k more, but the upgrade will cost 4k...and I don't think that will include all the new hardware...just mostly the new controller, motors and some stiffening braces. My shopbot is also only less than a year old, but I still considered the upgrade and after looking at the specs and considering my options...I came to the same conclusions I came to when I bought the PRT96. It is accurate enough for what I do. It will do all the things a more expensive machine will do. Sure its kind of ugly compared to some of the more "high end" machines...but it is a tried and true design with a good track record for all the people I have talked to that have used it. I can work on it and maintain it without the help of outside technicians. Would I like to rip wood at 800 ipm, of course, do I need to? NO. The current shopbot PRT96 is rated to be as accurate as the new alpha. I'm glad I was able to get up and running for $8500...I still had to spend another $1000 on software...more for bits...wasted wood...so on and so on...I would say I got totally up and running for the about 10K and that includes my "education"(mistakes)to become effective enough on the bot to make some money with it. I'm glad I didn't spend more on a faster machine...I don't know if I would have had the extra cash I needed to get to where I'm at now with all the unseen costs I have occured. The PRT96 was purchased with my shoe string budget and still fills the need and does the job. The choice I made then was pretty clear and I still feel I made the best compromise of price and performance for my application, just because there is an "upgrade" avalible now, does that mean somehow all the benefits that the PRT96 provide for me are somehow less, I don't think so. I understand time is money and all that jazz, but for real, upgrades come out, and people go crazy. The prt96 is just as good a machine today as it was yesterday. Besides...the longer the machine takes...the more time I have to drink good coffee and watch Junk Yard Wars!

Erik

[gerald_d]

There is no pressure on anyone to buy the HotBot or to upgrade. You can stick with the tried and tested PRT, unless the extra speed is essential to you. But, if that extra speed is essential, why are you looking at ShopBot today?

[kerrazy]

Here Here Erik,
That is kind of my struggle, I also would like to have the latest and greates, but frankly I can not justify it currently. Especially since signage is our true focus currently. Which means I need basically the current speeds I am using now anyhow?
But it is that raw Tim Taylor in me that says I need the Binford 6000 version that keeps haunting me.
Dale

[joe]

Erik,

What extra bracing have you heard about?

Our PRT can not run at top speed when doing deliclate work due to the wiggle. Yes we have tightened it all and continue to torque it down.

We are thinking of calling our local welder for some tack welding in the corners of the Y axix.

I love by SB but it is what it is, a little weak.

j

[erik_f]

I don't know what they plan to do to update the PRT in terms of ridgidity...I saw PARTS of the new Alpha while I was down there. The X-car was beefed up...it looked similar to todays design, but use extruded aluminum instead of Unistrut, and...the corners of the X-car were beefed up with braces. The new Y car is made from a single piece of heavy sheet metal and then bent at either side to create the v bearing mounts...then it is re-enforced with two pieces of extruded aluminum which also create the mount for the z-axis which I believe will remain unchanged...PLEASE don't quote me on any of this! I was only there for a few hours, and was trying to get help for my current shopbot, so my main focus was not on the Alpha or the upgrade. But threre a things we can do to stiffen her up with a little bit of heavy duty plate steal, a drill press and some new mounting holes in the bot. I have just felt it is best to avoid welding anything on the bot...as I'm still pretty new to all of this and feel I may learn a few things and be able to tweak for even more accuracy. Well...I'm about to hit the go button and kick back, drink some good coffee and watch Junk Yard Wars for about and hour, or maybe I should do some laundry while the ShopBot cuts parts for me, what I really need now is a LaundryBot, arrrr I hate laundry!
Erik

[beacon14]

I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of this, but I figured it needs to be asked: For those who have the "old" PR or PRT 'bots, will we still be able to add (or replace) a Z axis, or would it require a full upgrade (replace all motors & control box)?
Enquiring minds want to know

[Johnny (Unregistered Guest)]

RE: Joe and Tony - I have a prt 120 and I get major wiggle! the smoother action of the motors and the increased rigidity would help with the edge quality of plastics. Although I am in agreement with Erik and a longer coffee break, but I am still a little upset

[olecrafty]

I don't see any comments on the Steroid Bot since the jamboree. Whats the feel on the new bot? HOT or NOT?

[rookie432]

Kaiwa,

Got too see the new bot in action this weekend. My opinion... HOT? 6-7 ips cut speed 35ips jog speed... and super smooth. Would allow me to get out those 2 and 3 flute cutters.
You would probably want a spindle for this bad boy though. Don't think the porter cable would keep up after a while. If your a cabinet maker, production runner, or 3d carver this upgrade is worth the extra cheddar. You would be keeping your tablesaw on the sidelines more often. Watched a video where the alpha was cutting up 3/4" plywood w/ 1/4" bit in a single pass at about 4-5 ips wow! Definitely up to the value of the 50-70 thousand dollar machines. I don't think Ted should apologize too much for the upgrade price ...but again... just my opinion.

[gerald_d]

Why so little feedback on the "HotBot" after the jamboree?


I am extremely curious about the mechanical stiffening. The little bit of detail visible in the video did not excite me, but I go the impression that the video was only supposed to illustrate speed.

[billp]

Gerald,
I just contacted Nancy down at Shopbot regarding pictures taken at the Jamboree. She said she has received a bunch and will try to get them posted as soon as she can. I'm hoping that a few people got pix of the details you are asking for. They DID include steel gussets on the table legs, and under the Y axis for stiffening. The rails of the Y axis were also larger in section...I think these modifications would help ALL machines, and it looks as though it wouldn't be hard to do. I'm not sure if they will be offering the gussets as a product for sale, but if not it might be a great product for 'Botters with a plasma machine..( hint,hint...)..

[gerald_d]

Bill,
Yes, I would very much like to see these photos!


Surely the upgrade kits from SB to take your PRT to the Alpha level must include all those gussets etc.? Otherwise it won't be a full Alpha.

[gerald_d]

Thanks to the SB'ers who have partially satisfied my craving and slipped me some photos via e-mails! (More would be welcome)

Impressed by the y-gantry ends that now primarily connect under the y-rails instead of on top. The integral gusseting of the bent plate going down to the rollers and motors will help a lot to keep the gantry square.

(How about some enterprising SB'er, with plastic vac-forming facilities, designing and producing aesthetic motor covers for the gantry ends? Something that will hide the cabling, connectors, springs, turn-buckles and offer some protection between connectors and passing people and planks....
If you incorporate drinksholders and tooltrays then you owe me royalties!
)

See that the rails are now bent from flat material instead of using angle iron. Suppose that this more expensive route was taken because there is no reliable supplier of straight angle iron.

One of my biggest curiosities hasn't been satisfied yet - how do the y-car hold-downs work these days?

Also surprised to see that the turn-buckles have been retained on the springs. IMHO it is much cheaper (and less prone to human error) to use springs of the correct tension stretched over a fixed distance. The distance is always known and is constant - there is no need for an adjustable spring. Plus, it will look better if nobody gets around to designing covers for us.

[bob buttons (Unregistered Guest)]

Just got wind of the alpha-train. Im just trying to catch up. I have a prt96. if i want to upgrade to alpha it is $3995? with that i send back the controller box for a new one then i get 4 new motors and some braces for the gantry? is that it or is there more involved?? since my prt96 is from 2001 do i get to keep my current steppers? it looks like recent buyers who wish to upgrade have to send back their motors but it doesnt say for older bots. I notice the cutting accuracy is the same as the old system is that correct? i would appreciate someone at shopbot verifying this. If it is true then the upgrade is simply for gaining speed which im sure for some would be great. Any and all info would be appreciated by myself and others im sure!

[erik_f]

Gerald,
The way the new Z-hold downs work is...the idea is very much the same as the PRT, but instead of the bearings being mounted to the Z type bent piece of steel, they mount directly to the Y car via the slots in the supporting aluminum cross braces...I think there will still need to be shimming of the height of the bearing...I think though the idea was so there would be no adjustments needed...but I'm not sure if that idea worked itself out.

Erik

[gerald_d]

Thanks for the pics everyone - my dialup modem can't handle anymore.

We will not go for the upgrade option. Right now we are glad that we bought our PRT at a price that we did. We don't experience any serious problems that an "upgrade" will cure for us.

[gerald_d]

Many folks have asked me why I don't like the horizontal "hold-down" rollers running on the inner edges of the y-rails:


8906


8907

Well, that is because the rollers and rail can disengage freely in the direction of the big arrow:


8908

In the perfect world, the rails would be infinitely stiff, and the other side rail will prevent the y-car from moving to the left, thus forcing the "hold-down" roller to work. But,in the real world, we know that the y-rails will flex slightly under load, causing looseness in the above layout.

My proposal remains to put the hold-downs under the y-rails, so that they can truly do the work of holding down, without relying on infinitely stiff rails.


8909

[bob buttons (Unregistered Guest)]

Please post more pics of the alpha set up THANKS!!! why so little info considering the jamboree was last week. i figured the forum would be swamped with pics and opinions of the new meachine?