Employees

[woodworx]

For some business like mine, I am the designer, planner, material purchaser, engineer, CAD man, toolpath man, set-up guy, and machine running dude all in a single day. Some business break each of these steps down into separate jobs and delegate effectively.

My first question is for those who are the delegating type of company. What are some important traits you look for in an employee that you would like to turn some of the responsibility over to? Did you begin your search long before you found someone who actually worked out. Also what type of training procedures have worked effectively?

Do you all have someone, either trained or hired with previous experience, that can identify problems while the machine is cutting, stop it, re-draw, or re-toolpath, and then commence cutting again? How about someone who can look at your design, figure out joints, assembly problems, break things down into parts and give you a sheet of what they need ordered?

I have tried to train only one person. After a year I can get him to show me how to jog the bit to the home position. (after telling him what keys to hit)

What I am trying to get is some general knowledge from those who have done it. Those who have started running the machine themselves and then moved the business into a more effective business system.

Comments, questions, suggestions?

[myxpykalix]

If after a year that is all this employee can do, unless he's a relative, i think its time to kick him to the curb unless he performs other valuable functions there.

You might try looking for ex-shopbotters, someone who may have sold his shopbot or maybe is a hobbyist and has the time to do work for you, maybe even if it is part time.

[bcammack]

Inquisitiveness, curiosity, etc. There's usually a pretty direct correlation between them and intelligence and educability.

[khaos]

Nice Brett. Educability. Whilst the root was familiar I still went and looked it up:

educable [ej-oo-kuh-buhl]
–adjective
1. capable of being educated.
2. of or pertaining to mildly retarded individuals who may achieve self-sufficiency.
3. degree of bot compatibility.

[jhicks]

Well I would have to say either the trainer isn't very good or the employee is somewhat impaired. Probably the latter.
I know I trained 2 young fellows how to manipulate machine, calibrate and verify all start up procedures, develop cut files from CAD dwgs, load bits, zero, run, and reload in two days. Over the next week we refined details, things to look for, how to do other related functions in a proactive manner.
After this there were few occurances other than machine hiccups or lost positions they needed any help with.
Simply gave them a cad file and off they went.
So I would recommend another apprentice and document the steps from PC start up to end of cut, clean, reload etc so they have a reference document step by step.(better yet have them document for you to proof and see/confirm what they learned)
If they can't handle that, you need better recruiting, training and/or screening methods.
start withsomeone PC literate, mechanically inclined, average or above measuring and math skills, and most important someone who is enthusiastic about learning new things. The kind who will actually take a book home and read it or troll the forum for tips and techniques.
A year to learn to press a keyboard and move the machine is just way out of line.
Try local high schools or JC's with CAD courses, woodwork/shop classes,or someone from a conventional cabinet shop who wants to grow.
Best of luck but gotta move on.
You goal is quite achieveable.

[drodda]

I will have to side with Justin on this one. I have tried to train another person for over three years now. I draw everything in Autocad and use part wizard to make the cutting files. I have gone through 6 employees in three years who were hired to run the bot along with other tasks. I am in the same shoes as Justin as me having to run the bot is limiting the growth on my business.

I have developed a system for building my products with the bot, however the bot is holding me back at the same time. Finding someone who won't kill either themselves or the bot is not that easy of a task, at least not where I have been looking. I contacted the school last year and place a flyer for a summer position and no one answered the add. Kids these days don't want to work.

I am thinking it is the teacher, however I spent 15 plus years teaching Cad to all new empoyees for the engineering company I worked for and they seemed to pick it up quickly.

After spending way too many hours fixing things at night that employees have messed up during the day, I have gone back to myself, my wife and my father-in-law and cut back on the amount of orders I can take. The fees that go with employees are not worth the headache if the people are not making money for the company.I.E. workers comp, Unemployment insurance, and payroll.

If you've made this jump I applaud you, But it is not that easy!

-D

[drodda]

I forgot to mention the fun employees are while running the bot, Nothing better than seeing the light show in the clear dust tubes when the bot tries to drill the same hole an EMPLOYEE just placed a hold down screw in. Seems they tried running the exact same file again that just place location holes for the hold down screws. As I am running in a panic to hit the machine he stood there frozen as it got three screws totally cleaned out before I could stop it.

The sparks that result are better than fireworks on the 4th of July.

All the while another employee sat there working on something else and did not even flinch as the machine let out an ear drum busting screech.

-D

[bcondon]

I think the failure is on many levels. I would not want to be a kid today because I think they have it a lot harder than when I started working professionally at 19. I started working when I was 14.

First there is the lack of "shop" classes for the kids in jr/high school. If you don't get saw dust on your hands, then you don't know what it feels like.

The nickname for 3 of us when we worked at Cisco was Bubba Cubed because each of us could fix almost anything. We would have a line out the door on "How do I.." while the other 1800 people have difficulties doing very common things. Fathers do not know how to do things and they do not pass on the skills.

"Anything but college is a failure" attitude. If anyone that I see does not know at all what they want to do when they grw up in high school, I recommend being an electrician or a plumber. Either you will get good at it, get some business skills and have other work for YOU (aka... profits), or you will understand what hard work is and decide to get your butt back into school so you can work at a desk.

Now up here in Massachusetts, it is pretty common for kids to have cars. My kids got Grandma and Grandpas older cars (aka... tanks). Now at the high school, it is very common to see kids driving better cars than the teachers and administrators because Mommy and Daddy give them Hummers, BMWs, Lexas... A few kids get a used van... SO WHY WOULD I BE SO STUPID TO WORK WHEN MY PARENTS GIVE ME EVERTHING? Even my kids comment on how crazy this notion is!

I think the bottom line is I WANTED stuff and I WORKED to buy those things, or have pocket money to have fun, date... all the fun things in life.

I gave my kids lots... but I gave them time like Boy Scouts (I was a leader), Band organization at the High School which was an organization that helped the school manage 140 band members and 80 chorus members, organizing fund raising run by the kids... IN BS I brough 10 kids from cub scouts -> boy scouts and I beleive that 4 of them got their Eagles... and all get together to go hiking even now...

My wife was also excellent with the kids on the discipliary area. Yes and sometimes I was as bad as the kids...

Oh, by the way, most of the Engineering schools no longer actually have machine shops... designing is a "theoreical" thing... I found one school in western Mass that has a full time machinist to TEACH the kids to build what they design... and they kick the pants off some of the "well known" schools because these kids are GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.

My Dad passed away 5 years ago and left me an entire metal working machine shop... I don't have time to work... I want to go back to night school and learn that trade 2... (I need about 4 lifetimes of all the things I would like to do)

The problem I see coming up for my youngest son is that he is at Northeastern University studying Industrial Engineering. He is taking a machining course that includes manual millers (metal) but also automated millers... He is taking a couple of manufacturing classes and some materials handling/ordering classes for his Co-op job. My problem... he is eyeing my shopbot... He asked me to buy a bigger one(He wanted the 12 footer) so that he could cut Kayak parts but when I asked if this would bring in an extra $5K which he would eventually donate to the purchas, he said he could not be sure so we got the 8 footer (He can scarf joints).

I think kids are not exposed to the basics any more, only computers and video games and adult run/supervised baseball so I feel kinda bad for them..I am glad I grew up and got a knock on the side of the head for chewing gum in gym...

Curiosity, what do they do in their spare time, what do they get a real kick out of? Those are the questions...

[woodworx]

Bob,
I bet you had to get that out sometime, huh?

I think most employees are going to be very TASK orientated, and not DIRECTIVE orientated.

"Sand this" is very different from "I would like this sanded very smooth." There is many different ways to go about everything so I am looking for ways to control the outcome of these directives.

I know there is no fool proof way to make things work 100% correct every time. What process work, and what have you all found that doesn't?

Does anyone have a training manual made up for employees they want to train on the bot?

Would you all like to help me put one together?

If we all decided to contribute a small part, we could create a nice little training manual filled with all the experience of the shopbot community.

[myxpykalix]

In high school we had both machine shop and woodshop classes. We were taught that if you learned a trade, even if you had higher aspirations, you could go anywhere in this country and get a job. I interned for a summer for one of these factory prefab home builders where we could put a small house together in four days and learned about every phase of construction. I paid $100.00 to work for them for free. That was the best $100.00 i've ever spent on education.
You have too many people in this country who feel they are "entitled" to a free check. If you are going to give it to me why should i have to do anything to earn it?, is the mentality now.

[wberminio]

I main reason I got a Bot was so I wouldn't have to deal with employees.I've had crews in the past,at one point I didn't touch a tablesaw for a year!I did spend that time fixing problems my well paid employees made,after they would leave promptly at 4:30.
I couldn't imagine handing my Bot over to any one of those incompetent,selfish people.Now it's just me and "Luigi" and an occasional part time helper.I am now producing more than I ever have in 25+ years.All I have to do now is figure out how to make some $$$$$$$$$$.


Erminio

[bleeth]

OK-So here is my experience with skilled cabinetmakers who I try to train to run the bot:
1. "Boy is that cool but I don't know much about computers (And I don't want to make the effort to learn either.)
2. "I will learn how to operate this for repetitive tasks by rote but the general concept and how to be proactive about troubleshooting, maintainence, and creative thinking is beyond me."

I have learned to settle for using employee number 2 to run it and handle engineering and programming myself. I do have my Autocad guy learning to nest and program cutting but he does most of that by rote also. ("Which toolpath template should I use to cut out these parts with?")

[gene]

There is so much truth in the previous post here. First of all if your employee does not have the desire to learn new things like the bot then you are wasting your and their time. I have shown my helper how to use the bot and he picked up on it fairly quickly. As an incentive he was told that if he had a outside project then he could use it for that after hours, as far as the kids now i think there definately given too much and their ability to problem solve and common sense have have been eroded to the point that most of them couldnt change a light bulb if their life depended on it. I am so glad that i too had a shop class in school because it had laid my future out and i feel that if i were to go to another part of the country i could always support myself on my talents. Kids now need to be taught to think outside the box and come up with unconventional solutions to conventional problems. The future is going to depend on this as we evolve into more efficient and a less wasteful society.

[bcammack]

I think that the crux of the issue is the abandonment of the vocational education. In Europe, they still will guide students towards a vocational education if they don't demonstrate sufficient aptitude for a college education.

Here, we presume that all students _must_ go to college and get a degree or they are somehow failures. I suspect that it is one reason we get a lot of disaffected young adults out in the workforce. They failed on the college path and have no recourse, leaving them with little motivation and self-worth issues.

[bcondon]

"Kids now need to be taught to think outside the box"

I am sadly concerned that for some kids that thinking is "outside the box"..

Good conversation

[rb99]

Kid also know more about how employers like to take advantage of them. When I was a kid I got ripped off by most employers. I worked my way up.

Many younger people have seen documentaries like The Corporation, The Smartest Guys in the Room etc. They have access to knowledge I did not have.

To think they will be sucked into the game like eager beavers may not happen.

RB

[jhicks]

Clearly there are experiences here with some unfortunate disappointments. Not sure but I still would say its in the basic desire level, aptitude, and interest in the opportunity. While I admit Schools aren't what they used to be, many fine young people are out there who can and do learn with good mentoring and training.
So I agree its a sad case when you invest many months for little results but that just means to me the wrong person was picked for the opportunity.
Don't give up. Try bringing in some Eagle Scouts or troop or "kids for a day" to show and tell like a mini camp and see if you can find anyone enthusiastic about learning.
Best of Luck. This isn't rocket science.

[drodda]

DO they even still have "Eagle Scouts"? Maybe in large cities in your area. Here in the rural midwest these organizations are non-existant. Just lots of old ladies waiting to be helped across the street.

Now that we know that most feel the youth are doomed, does anyone have a good answer to finding and training new help. With all the news of the jobless out there, it does not seem that anyone of them want to let go of their free money(unemployment) and pick up a tool.

-D

[wberminio]

Maybe we're looking in the wrong place for someone to learn and use a CNC.A woodworker my have a preconceived notion of working wood,(hand saw,chisels...) not a computer.Many young people are born with a keyboard.Others still like doing things with their hands.Combining the the two skills maybe the answer.

Erminio

[woodworx]

I do believe there are so many unemployed right now, you don't have to pay top dollar for the best workers. In California it is tough to get by making less than $15 per hour. Add Workman's Comp, Unemployment, and all the other overhead, you are looking at spending thousands and thousands before you have someone that understands the machine.

Anyone opened their shop up for Interns from community colleges?

[jhicks]

Hey Dave,I get it, Plesantville population over 18 is 1000 and males over 18 740. Well thats clearly a limited supply but with DesMoines only 25 minutes away hopefully you can get someone to commute.
I understand the good old "american work ethic" is something of a legend.
Given your situation, I wish I had better advice but I would definately discuss with the High School, chamber of commerce, local churches, and the two lumber yards /suppliers and builders.
If that doesnt net any positiove results maybe a free well written ad in Craigs list. In the end, I would suggest screening for specific skills like math, reading blueprints, measuring, and computer skills. I would hire them on a probationary basis say 30 to 60 days with clear and documented specific performance requirements that you need, expect, and are achieveable. Then if they do make the cut, bump their pay a bit, if not review with them at 15 days, 30 days, and finally 45 or 60. I like the 3 strikes and you are out method. Verbal review of concerns and positives, written review of must resolve issues with a timeframe specific, finally a you got it or you don't. Good for you or sorry gotta go.
And yes the scouts are still active, in your area 4H is probably alive and well.
Best of luck, where there is a will there is a way.

[ljdm]

Part of being a Boss involves all the trials and tribulations described in these posts. But, that's the choice we make. Seems like it's slim pickin's at times when it comes to hiring, but, again, all part of the game. Then when you finally hire someone worth their weight in sawdust, it all seems worth it. Like most of the things we do, buy a car, decide which job to take, which product to sell,etc...... gotta weed out the bad to find the good. Perseverance, patience, luck, good judgement, yeah it can be a crapshoot sometimes. All part of being a Boss.
My 1 cents worth(inflation)

[bcondon]

I have never met an Eagle Scout that I did not like...

At our church, we have an Eagle Scout candidate that is building a couple of hardwood benches for the patio. I told him about the machine and offered to route the church name into the back so that maybe it won;t be stolen (even though it will needed to be secured to the patio.

His attitude was COOL... can I watch you cut it, then his Dad wanted to come too!

This boy will go far...

The Boy Scout program is running stromg in our town with two very active troops. Troop1, which I was a member back in the late 60s, has continued with some dedicated adults. I joined in the adult ranks in the late 1980s doing a lot of teaching first aid as I was a Ski Patroller for 10 years.

The troop was run by the boys. It was a High Adventure troop that did a lot of back packing, white water rafting, Rock climbing/rapelling and NO car camping. On a hike, the younger guys would hike 1/2 way up the mountain to the camp site while the older boys would hike to the backside of the mountain, then up and over and down to meet up at the campsite.

One leader was a pilot and a parachutist... I was offered to jump dual out of a perfectly good airplane which I decided was just a bit over the top.

A good BS program is a wonderful thing!

bc

[myxpykalix]

I recently found my old boy scout uniform. After trying it on the button on the pants didn't come anywhere near fastening and the bottom buttons on the shirt went undone. Other than that it was a perfect fit!

[beacon14]

I have never met an Eagle Scout that I did not like...

My son and I were lucky to join a similar Troop - lot's of hiking, canoeing, even rappelling, caving, and the like. He has just completed his Eagle Service Project (also benches, with some parts cut on the Shopbot) and will become an Eagle in the next few months.

I can't recommend Boy Scouts highly enough as a venue to teach rapidly growing boys about leadership, goal setting, teamwork, and good, clean fun. If you can get yourself an Eagle Scout as an employee, consider yourself lucky.

[hh_woodworking]

Well after reading so of the post I had to jump in. I am A Tech Ed teacher(Shop) in a small rural area. We Still teach Wood Working, Metal Working and Welding. We have a very Complete Shop. Full wood shop, mig. tig and stick welding, metal lathes, vertical mill and surface grinder. I have also added a Shopbot, Plamsa Cam and Laser engraver.
One of the first challenges that I face when I get students is reading a ruler! They spend a short time on this in 3rd grade and never see it again. I teach a 7&8 grade class and High School. I focus my jr high on problem solving activity's. I do individual projects and group work. The first project that they do is a glued up cutting board with either a laser engraved design or a bot engraved design. The next is rube goldbreg project in groups of 3-5 student that are randomly picked. 1/2 of the grade is based on working together. I try to explain that they will be working jobs later with people that they may or may not like, but will have to preform the task required for the job. Each project is followed by a written reflection of the project.( I try hard to make the students think outside the box) and think of different ways to solve the problem that was given to them. Some of then get very upset when the answer is not handed to them or it is not an a b c answer. They have trouble with the concept that there is more than one answer the the problem. High School are required tho use both manual and computer based machines for there projects. My biggest problem is getting the students to pay for project. They will not build larger project because of the cost. Some do not have the money and the other will not spend it for the projects. This has gotten worst over the last 10 years then is was when I first started. An other thing that i have noticed is they are a lot more self center. I have a hard time getting them to build a project that they do get to keep. A lot of time I have stuff that other people want build but no one to build it.
I do have several student that excel and go to work straight from high school into cabinet making or other areas. You just need to keep looking for that employee that will do what you need them to do.

Ed Harrall

[bcondon]

Ed,

where are you located? In the Norteast, we have not had either shop (wood, metal) or food prep for probably 20 years. Congrats on hold ing onto the projects.

I think we will find that stopping those classes was a real mistake.

My Dad was a machinist when he was alive. He worked on very intersting projects, much time for free to graduate students of one of the big name engineering schools...

He used to service 5 companies that he liked because they had technically interesting work. You can not find a machinist easily in this area. The ones that are around lie about delivery dates or they produce poor quality work.

I have his entire shop and maybe will have enough time in this lifetime to gain some of his skills that I have lost by being away from the shop for so long.

Thanks for giving us a perspective of a system still in place. Keep is going because these kids do not realize that they may have a monopoly of skills on their hands!

BC

[woodworx]

Since kids aren't being taught anything, and it's hard to find boyscouts these days........What experiances have you all found with posting ads for Shopbot employees. Where is a good place to post, and how much have you all spent on getting these reliable employees? Also, if you were to put a dollar value on hiring and training, what do you think is a resonable investment to getting a new botter?

[gene]

Why not take your employee by the hand over to the bot and tell him gently that he needs to learn how to operate this machine because his job depends on it. Give him a reasonable amount of time ( 30 min) and if he doesnt have it down by then shoot him. I bet the next employee you take over to the bot will want to learn it.

[myxpykalix]

Justin,
with the economy the way it is and so many people out of work you should have no trouble cherry picking the best person out of a pool of qualified people these days.

Stop "scraping the bottom of the barrel" for lazy , "ignert" people who don't want to work.

Try calling some of the better employment agencies. The fees I believe are paid by the employee (not sure) out of their pay, but they won't send you a bunch of "shlubs" who are wasting your time just to fulfill their requirement of "looking for work" like you will get from the state run unemployment office.

I would get phone calls that went like this-
Hello-"Are you hiring?" No..CLICK
Then i would get lists of people who claimed they filled out applications and applied.
I put BIG checkmarks by NO !
Call some of the privately run employment agencies and ask how they work and if they screen potential people and what the fees are or run an ad in your sunday paper for QUALIFIED ONLY apply.

[hh_woodworking]

My shop is in Southwest Missouri close to the Arkansas border. In the town of Washburn. I was fortunate that the school board that was in place when I started teaching believed that the program should be kept and expand. Unfortunately some of that later Administration did not have the same feeling. I have fought strongly to kept it and I have once again turned the corner. My biggest concern at this point is what will happen to the program when I retire. There are not many graduates coming out of college to take my place. I have tried to recruit student to take my place but have not been very successful yet. The pay here is low with 15yrs, b.s. +36 hrs pay is< 30,000. Hard to talk students into the job when the pay range is so low. They will spend way more that that to get there degree. Industry in this area will start them at about 60,000 with my degree to work for them. I teach because is has been the most rewarding job that I have ever done. I work several different jobs before teaching. It took me 18 years to complete my degree. ( working and going to school at the same time.) I wish that I had your dads shop at my house to work with)

I do have a lot of former students return and state: I wish that I taken advantage of the equipment that we had to use. I have had them go into highly skilled maintenance job right out of High School with the knowledge that they gained here.

[chiere]

O.k., Here's my take on it,...

First, I believe you need someone with both artistic interest and mechanical aptitude.

Second, the person needs to have an eye for detail, pride in a well done job, and a strong work ethic. It takes a lot of patience to do this, (as you know since you do it, =-D)

And third, you get what you pay for. Very seldom will you find an $8 an hour hey-boy from the labor pool who's interested in doing all this. (Although, it does happen,... We got super lucky! Our new router operator came from Day Labor, and he is a gem! He is all the things so far listed.)

I do everything that you do. But I ain't cheap. I never have been. I'm also really good at what I do.

Sometimes, to get the quality operator you need, you have to headhunt them from somewhere else, and be ready to pay for it. Sometimes, paying them more saves you money and agony.

As far as hiring young 20somethings,... Sure they were raised in excess. But I still believe smarts is smarts. Ya got it or ya don't. Kids are out there who will listen and learn and take pride in the job. You just have to weed through the chaff, (of any age,) and be willing to fire someone if they aren't producing good product within 6 weeks.

Oh, just read Jack Jarvis's post and agree wholeheartedly. Also agree wholeheartedly with Gene Rhodes, LOLOL!!!

Also, don't rule out the women-folk. I are onez and I kick major butt on the shopbot. As a matter of fact, apparently, I am so the awesomes that my boss calls me to troubleshoot it from an hour away (I now work from home making the files for the router dude to upload and run, =-D)

[chiere]

Oh, also, I never had Shop in high school. I took Home Ec, =-D I learned Shop by being raised on a farm,...

[drodda]

Gene,

I like your way of thinking! Do you have time to come to my shop and train my employees. The pay is good?

[woodworx]

Now we are getting somewhere. Anyone other than Cheri's company outsource all your drawing and toolpathing to someone off site? We could have individuals as far as India do it.

[bcondon]

Justin,

If you want India, join Cisco systems... The American workers that brought all that wonderful technology to Cisco are being replaced by Cisco India at 7000 strong. Cisco is downsizing in Massachusetts to move the jobs to India. Gack



Cheri, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I took both Shop (metal and wood in Jr. High) and wood shop and Boys food prep [AKA FOOD] in High School.

Boys food prep gave me the opportunity to cook for large groups on church trips (40+ kids for a week several times) and a part time cook in a french resturant during college...(boy I would reek of garlic!)

[drodda]

Gene Rhodes = Jack Bauer, who would of thought it?

WWJBD

-D

[zeykr]

Justin,
I assumed you were looking for someone to operate the machine while you did the design and toolpathing. While the operator has to be physically in your shop, thanks to the internet, the design/toolpathing is something that can easily be outsourced to anyplace.

I do design/toolpathing for several companies, some small, some large, none of them in my hometown. A couple have shopbots but more have Komo, Multicam etc. Know there are several other shopbotters that do so as well. As has been stated here before, our shopbots may not be the most expensive machines out there, but they work the same as the big machines and shopbotters often understand the machines and their capabilities and the software better then many owners of the big iron.


I have to agree with Bob about the India comment though. My IT job went to India about 18 months ago. My old company just laid off another 1200 US workers yesterday and more the month before, but it's India and China facilities are hiring. Talking to the few people that remain at the local plant, even though they they hire 2 employees in India for each they let go here, the plant here just has to go without the services we used to supply for them. The language, cultural, and especially time barriers outsourcing overseas are difficult and inefficient to overcome. The problem is not just the US jobs lost to overseas, but also the inefficiencies it places on the jobs/operations that remain here.

[woodworx]

Since this post I have let the employee go that couldn't learn the bot. I am definitely sticking to the original plan of hiring slow, and firing quickly. Also friends/employees don't mix. Lessons learned and life goes on.

[gene]

Dave
Who is Jack Bauer? I must be missing something. Also since things have slowed a bit around here i am willing to travel and train empolyees. You must have access to a backhoe though. LOL
Justin
The employee friend thing does not work. I hired a guy and he stayed here for over 10 yrs . I bought a bot and well i led him over to the bot ...well you know the rest of the story...

[myxpykalix]

Jack Bauer is a fictional government agent who saves the world on the show "24" on Fox. Frankly I think this is an insult. I've met you and you are waaay "purdier" and a whole lot cooler...lol

[mccoy178]

Read this for some clarity on Mr. Bauer:

http://www.jackbauerfacts.com/