My first Shopbot - the story so far

[The Workshop Barbados]

I bought my first Shopbot a few months back and I thought it would be helpful to share my experience*with the forum.**

I bought it to help me make sculptures and I'm new to CNC but am very technical so setting*it up myself was a challenge*I was up for.* I bought a PRS Alpha with 17" of Z.
So, here goes...

--Setup--
From start of assembly to my first cut took 11 days.* This was well above the 3 days Shopbot tell you to allow and this was for a few reasons.* The first was the documentation was wrong in ways that meant I had to restart several times.* Steps were missing, measurements were incorrect and numerous other things.* I actually received a 4th*set of set up docs last*week after I queried something else.* Note that it was me that started this request, they*didn't offer me the revised docs.

Support was excellent, but they were also misinformed*about the configuration*of my machine.* After a week of wasted time, it transpired that the drawings the engineering team had done were also wrong and so we were back to the beginning*again.

Their email support was excellent, often getting back to me in 5 mins.* It's just such a shame that I needed them so much, I had literally*hundreds of emails from them.* I don't think I'm being unreasonable in expecting world class documentation from Shopbot, they've been doing this for 30 odd years so should understand how critical it is that documentation is absolutely*correct.* I expected*Ikea quality instructions and got knockoff import with typos and errors.* Maybe everyone that sets these up has done it before or they use a 3rd party to set it up for them.

I'm sure my inexperience*led me to make mistakes, too, but I'm very technical and can read a manual so I didn't think it was above my ability.

--Software--
I'd seen the control software (SB3) before so it wasn't a surprise how it looks.* It looks like an intern project from 20 years ago and to be honest, I think that's what it is.* It is truly dreadful.* I'm sure if you've been using it for years it's all second nature, but for a new user it is horrifyingly*bad.* It's*difficult to use, not intuitive in any way, crashes regularly and is quite simply the least helpful piece of software I've ever used.* Shopbot should be ashamed that they've let it languish into this state.* I know that they are not a software company*first, but they really need to get in someone that understands software.

--Summary--
I'm not sure I regret buying the Shopbot, the build quality of the machine is excellent and I'm having fun making sculptures, but there's something*missing from their product development that feels like maybe they only care about the existing users.* For me, the next step is to swallow the cost of switching to the Acorn control system (about 6k USD) . I've seen a demo and it looks like a pretty good solution.



*

[brian.owen]

Hey, this is Brian -- the head of our engineering team at ShopBot. I just wanted to take some time to respond to your post.

You and I worked together quite a bit on the setup of your machine. I definitely regret that it took a few days for the support team and I to get on the same page with regard to the issues that you were facing with your machine. Once I realized that you were working on a custom configuration for your table; I was able to pull together what we needed to move forward.

To provide a bit more context -- you had requested that we customize the assembly of your machine to make it possible for you to hold larger stock than would normally be possible with a Z axis of the size that you purchased. We've worked hard to design the components of our machines (especially in the most recent revision of the table design) to be reconfigurable to allow for something like a lower mounting of the table surface; and alternative locations for the indexer and control box like what you requested for your machine.

I'd be happy to discuss this here -- I think that the modularity and configurability of ShopBot machines is one of the things that makes them special; and I'm proud of the work that our engineering team does to make these unique machines possible for folks -- but I also want to respect your privacy and don't think it's really appropriate to get into detailed discussion about the configuration of your equipment here unless you'd like to. My inbox is always open for private comments and questions.

One thing that I will say is that our instructions are definitely not "imports" -- I know because I wrote them! I also work hard to integrate any feedback that I get about something that isn't clear or something that I've omitted. With the new PRS5 model of machine; it was really important to me that every user receive a specific set of assembly instructions for their specific configuration of machine -- even with just our normally available options -- that means 16 different versions of the Alpha Gantry assembly manual! We used to have just 1. I'm excited to receive feedback from anyone about assembly instructions and will always work to make them better.

On Software; that's a frequent topic of discussion on this forum and those who've been around for a while will know that we get lots of feedback on UI, reliability and feature enhancements that our software needs. People who have been around even longer will have heard about our efforts over the years to move to a new, more modern platform. I probably agree with all of them about the need to update and improve. One thing that I can and will do is make regular updates and improvements to the code that runs the machine processes -- ATC, indexer, homing, etc...but I completely agree that it is past time to move on to a new more modern platform. We do have a small group working on it; and we've been mainly working to ensure that it is the most reliable way to run your ShopBot. As soon as I've got something meaningful to contribute to this ongoing discussion; I'll be running back here to share it.

Acorn in definitely an option as well; there are plenty of people on this forum and in the facebook groups that have made the change. There have been varying degrees of satisfaction and success; but I think that it definitely addresses some of the concerns that you have with our current software. The only thing that I'd caution you about though is that we at ShopBot aren't using Acorn on our machines; our support team is using our software -- and they're able to support our software. It is far easier for us to help out when we are on a common control software.

As you mentioned -- our support team is outstanding and they'll always be ready to help when you run into an issue or have a question. I hope that you'll continue coming to us with any concerns that you have. We'll keep working to improve things.

[The Workshop Barbados]

I've been impressed with Shopbot's openness and the fact that they allow this open forum with very light moderation is a good thing for everyone.* Getting involved*with a post like this is also really healthy as they could simply ignore it and hope it goes away. Thanks Brian.

My comments here are simply aimed at being instructive*to other potential customers and also to Shopbot themselves.* As I said, I'm new to CNC and so I went for SB because*they had such a good reputation, particularly*when it comes to support as I knew I would need some.

As for the documentation, I stand by what I said. It took me 11 days to assemble.* The instructions that came with the machine were for the wrong configuration as well as being incomplete.* When I queried*this after 3-4 days I was sent a different set with many apologies. These also turned out to be wrong.* Brian got involved at this point and he got everything sorted in a few days.* Each new set of instructions required*me to go back to nearly the beginning each time.* I don't want it to happen to anyone else.

I've no idea how typical this is, but I wasted about 7 days due to poor documentation.**

With regard to the software, this concerns me much more as it makes me question the strategy of the company and the huge investment I've made by buying equipment from them.

I'm certainly not the only person to question the quality of SB3 on this forum and others. I found a long forum from years ago that was discussing FABMO. Was that a planned upgrade that never happened?

[8Ball]

Sadly, Shopbot hasn't followed through with many promises. Shopbot has fallen way behind on the advancements that many other companies have lead.
Shopbot has known of the issues and complaints for years, and has failed to offer any resolution. Their market value has dropped significantly, since there are many other options available,
at a more competitive price point with welded frames, as opposed to a bolt together machine. Software has out-ran Shopbot, and they still refuse to upgrade.
Quality machines come fully assembled, and ready to run.

Using excuses of various configurations for poor/incomplete docs, isn't quality support. The control software doesn't change, only the extension of the axis.

[brian.owen]

I've been impressed with Shopbot's openness and the fact that they allow this open forum with very light moderation is a good thing for everyone.* Getting involved*with a post like this is also really healthy as they could simply ignore it and hope it goes away. Thanks Brian.

Anytime -- Well at some point I've gotta log off and work on other stuff; but I'm happy to discuss improvements and to help -- especially when there's something that's keeping you from being productive with your machine.

My comments here are simply aimed at being instructive*to other potential customers and also to Shopbot themselves.* As I said, I'm new to CNC and so I went for SB because*they had such a good reputation, particularly*when it comes to support as I knew I would need some.

I definitely don't intend to discourage posts like this in the forum -- we could always do with more people of all skill levels sharing their experiences, both positive and negative, to help out new users or those who are looking to purchase a machine. We work hard in support and engineering to be a good resource to folks that are new to CNC -- but it helps to have users helping each other on places like the forum and facebook groups.

As for the documentation, I stand by what I said. It took me 11 days to assemble.* The instructions that came with the machine were for the wrong configuration as well as being incomplete.* When I queried*this after 3-4 days I was sent a different set with many apologies. These also turned out to be wrong.* Brian got involved at this point and he got everything sorted in a few days.* Each new set of instructions required*me to go back to nearly the beginning each time.* I don't want it to happen to anyone else.

I've no idea how typical this is, but I wasted about 7 days due to poor documentation.**

This was the main point that I wanted to clarify for others reading the thread wondering about the typical experience of building a PRS5 generation ShopBot. 95% of the machines that we sell each year are configured according to our standard drawings and documentation; so the conditions that led to your frustrating assembly experience are not the typical conditions that users encounter when getting started with a ShopBot. When we get a request to configure one of our machines in some non-standard way -- we'll typically work up a few rough drawings to show how the machine might be configured and to ensure that we'll be able to accommodate the request. 90% of those inquiries don't go anywhere and remain just sketches. When a customer chooses to purchase a machine like this -- we'll work on creating custom assembly documentation and information about working with any of the unique features of the machine and ship that out with the machine. Typically we want to follow up with the customer once they've received their machine to make sure that things are going smoothly.

My mistake was not making the connection between the conversation that we'd had over email about a custom configuration prior to the sale and the business name that appeared on our production log once you placed your order. For all of the typical orders that come in and ship out through the year; we have full documentation prepared for each configuration and accessory. I completely agree with the points you've made about how frustrating the assembly process was without the appropriate documentation -- and it's one of the reasons why I tend to push for limited customizations unless the user's application makes customization absolutely necessary. Good documentation takes a lot of time and work to create and maintain.

With regard to the software, this concerns me much more as it makes me question the strategy of the company and the huge investment I've made by buying equipment from them.

I'm certainly not the only person to question the quality of SB3 on this forum and others. I found a long forum from years ago that was discussing FABMO. Was that a planned upgrade that never happened?

The main thing that I'm concerned about with control software are performance issues -- especially with SB3 which, as you've noted, is limited in how sophisticated the UI can be by the development environment in which it is maintained. Among the various customer support inquiries we get in a given week; software questions come up plenty. Our support team is able to resolve the majority of these issues and most users are able to get back to work. Occasionally we recommend a new PC -- we offer an inexpensive laptop that we've stripped of all other applications that might lead to performance issues with the software. While there is plenty that could be improved upon in a new control system -- most of our customers use SB3 daily without issues.

With regard to a new control system -- FabMo, which you've read about, has been more or less in serious development for the past 7 years. Hardware changes and shifts in focus have set us back quite a bit in the development of this system and we've just now reached a point where we can shift focus from the underlying framework of the system to the user experience -- things like how you view files in your system; how manual toolchanges can be made more efficient; how to save and load settings for custom configurations. The main things that the user will notice with this system are shorter cut times due to improved motion planning and higher feedrates, a more robust/reliable connection between the PC and controller (the PC is built into the machine, so the user will not need a dedicated windows PC to run the machine) and a more modern interface that will be easier to "skin" to match the UI that different types of users expect.

Again, I really appreciate your feedback and have already taken steps here to improve the experience for other customers that might be looking for a unique machine like yours. I think that we've gone over what we can productively discuss here in this thread -- so I'm going to go ahead and lock it. If anyone is interested in continuing a productive discussion in another thread -- I'll be happy to reply there!